Guidon bearers on battle day

[Jenny]

Hi all, I need your brilliant minds.

Who were the guidon bearers for each company on the battle day? The only one Fred W. was certain about was Cpl. Hughes.
Sgt. Vickory (Groesbeck) would normally have been the regimental standard bearer, but on that day it was rolled up in a case with the pack train (as you probably all already know!) Vickory may also have been the one who carried Custer's personal guidon, had it been flown that day.

And did Libby really make his flags? I can't picture her sewing anything.

Much thanks,
Jenny

 

[noggy]

Dec 31, 2022 21:28:05 GMT -6 Jenny said:

Hi all, I need your brilliant minds.

Who were the guidon bearers for each company on the battle day? The only one Fred W. was certain about was Cpl. Hughes.
Sgt. Vickory (Groesbeck) would normally have been the regimental standard bearer, but on that day it was rolled up in a case with the pack train (as you probably all already know!) Vickory may also have been the one who carried Custer's personal guidon, had it been flown that day.

And did Libby really make his flags? I can't picture her sewing anything.

Much thanks,
Jenny

 

I know of one more with fairly certainty: Frank Sniffin, M Company. He was the only one from Reno's three companies who managed to save his guidon. Cpt French first believed him to have lost it and started berating him, but turned out he had torn it of the lance/pole and tucked it inside his jacket. For all I know, someone else was originally M Company's guidon bearer and he just saved it. But even so he took the duties of a guidon bearer upon himself and imo should "count".

Then you have the "Culbertson Flag", named so after the trooper who found the flag after the battle. It was auctioned away for 2 million USD or something. Culbertson found it under the body of a trooper. This is the piece written on it by the auction house: www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2010/custer39s-last-flag-the-culbertson-guidon-from-the-battle-of-the-little-bighorn-n08705/lot.5001.html It does refer to historical work, including that of George Kush. He claims the trooper was Corporal John Foley from C Company. In the article there, there are mentioned works regarding this, maybe worth reading up on.

I don't know anything about sewing, though an ex-girlfriend forced me to learn a little knitting. 

All the best,
Noggy

[Jenny]

Thanks so much. The Sotheby's site is invaluable - especially the Zaricor Appendix 2. No doubt many of the flags in possession of Indians were ultimately burned or buried.

I knew about Foley and the Culbertson flag (I agree that it should more properly be called the Foly-Culbertson flag) but the more I learn the more I want to know.I would love to see it in person. Is it the case that a corporal in each company was designated the guidon-bearer? Fred thought Custer didn't carry his personal flag into battle but we didn't get to correspond long enough for me to ask why he thought this (I see that the flag has never resurfaced, and Libby didn't have it, so maybe that's why.)

j

[Yan Taylor]

Hi Jenny.

Concerning Corporals, Each cavalry company had four, here is a brealdown of a standard full strength US Cavalry Company circa 1876 (78 all ranks).

1 x Captain
1 x 1st Lieutenant
1 x 2nd Lieutenant
1 x First Sergeant
2 x Buglers
1 x Saddler
1 x Farrier
1 x Wagoner
1 x Blacksmith
5 x Sergeants
4 x Corporals
51 x Troopers

This was not the case at the BLBH when Companies averaged around 40 all ranks.

Each of these officers had an orderly to do his bidding and Trumpeters were generally used as couriers.
I have being trying to track down who was the orderly for every officer who took the field that day, Fred helped me a lot but I am still short on a few, here is what I have got.

Col. Custer (Sgt Hughes, Trp Dose, Trp Martini, Pvt Burkman)
Maj. Reno (Pvt Davern) Private J Mitchell (Reno’s Cook) Pvt McIlhargey (striker)
Capt. Benteen ?
Capt. Custer ?
Capt French (Pvt Lorentz orderly) (Pvt Koltzbucher Striker)
Capt McDougall (Pvt Dorn orderly)
Capt Weir (Pvt Sanders)
Capt M Keogh (Pvt Korn, Pvt Lloyd) (Pvt Kelly Striker)
Capt Yates (Pvt Pickard – later detailed to the pack train)
Capt. Moylan (Pvt Deihle)

1st Lt Cooke (Pvt Goldin) ?

1st Lt Porter ?
1st Lt Calhoun ?
1st Lt DeRudio (Trp McVeigh)
1st Lt McIntosh (Striker Pvt Rapp G Coy)
1st Lt Gibson ?
1st Lt Godfrey ?
1st Lt Mathey ?
1st Lt Smith ?
1st Lt Wallace (Pvt Hackett)

2nt Lt Harrington (Trp Kramer)
2nd Lt Sturgis ?
2nd Lt Reily ?
2nd Lt Crittenden ?
2nd Lt Wallace (Pvt Hackett)
2nd Lt Hodgson (Pvt Mask)
2nd Lt Varnum (Pvt Strode)
2nd Lt Hare (Pvt Clear)
2nd Lt Edgerly (Sgt Harrison)

Dr DeWolf (Pvt Abbotts medical orderly)
Dr Porter (Pvt Ryder medical orderly)
1st Lt. Dr Lord (Corp Callahan medical orderly)

Hope this is of help

Ian

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

Company D corporal Wylie came under fire during the retreat from Weir Pk. and the guidon staff he carried was shot in half. That lost bottom half of the staff is believed to have been the stick rammed down Farrier Vincent Charley's throat after he was wounded and abandoned.

It is highly unlikely that Sgt. T.W. Harrison was Lt. Edgerley's orderly. There is a problem related to Walter M. Camp's notes and their meaning, with successive researchers accepting and trolling an incorrect interpretation. My belief is that Farrier Charley was Edgerley's orderly. The source for Harrison was Camp, camp only, in interviewing Harrison and Harrison was with the HQ by his own accounts of the battle. He carried a message to Benteen on Reno Hill, from Custer. Not too many people have heard about this.

Regards.

Here contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/p15999coll31/id/48860/rec/3 is Camp's actual text. Harrison was not Edgerley's orderly but it can be read that way. Camp knew what he meant when he wrote it. Researcher's rushed in and trod where fools didn't.

[Yan Taylor]

I agree with you HR, I never felt right about a Sgt being an orderly, but I cannot remember where I got that from.

Ian

[Jenny]

Very helpful, thanks!
j

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

A number of authors got into Camp's stuff and did very good work. An interesting twist here is that the notes were cut up into slivers because of the random way he scribbled any handy scrap of paper. He knew what he was told and the Harrison notes can be taken in two ways. Harrison was Orderly or someone else was. Since the note was preceded by comment about VC, my interpretation is valid and high percentage to be on the money. It's an important bit of research since Harrison had a tale or two to tell, and did. He may have been central to Weir's behaviour on Reno Hill.

Original interpretation of Camp's comment by Hammer, I think, passed on in work by others who studied the notes - Lidic comes to mind and that version of it became defacto. Equally, Farrier as Orderly can be criticised on the same score but the loss and it's manner had a deep effect on Edgerley. Losing his orderly offers one explanation.

Regards.

[Yan Taylor]

I think an orderly would be just a rank and file private HR.

Ian