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Post by fredinzona on Dec 14, 2022 20:12:48 GMT -6
Have varying timelines for how long Weir and the other Troopers watch the Custer battle. Estimates have varied from 10minutes to over an hour. Eyewitness testimony gives hints of "maybe we saw more, but aren't going to tell." It has been noted that the farther away in time, the shorter the battle becomes to Trooper participants.
Was this an extended amount of time where they could have intervened? Was this what Weir said he would talk to Libby about "later"? Was this was drove him to suicide?
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Post by noggy on Dec 15, 2022 6:48:41 GMT -6
Have varying timelines for how long Weir and the other Troopers watch the Custer battle. Estimates have varied from 10minutes to over an hour. Eyewitness testimony gives hints of "maybe we saw more, but aren't going to tell." It has been noted that the farther away in time, the shorter the battle becomes to Trooper participants. Was this an extended amount of time where they could have intervened? Was this what Weir said he would talk to Libby about "later"? Was this was drove him to suicide? Hello and welcome! You'll find a good suggestion for a timeline in Fred Wagner's "Strategy for Defeat". Well, 10 minutes seems too short. I say that because we can look at events which unfolded at Weir Point. After leaving Reno Hill, Weir is the first to reach Weir Point. The rest of the outfit under Reno leave Reno Hill piecemeal, this includes Benteen. They reach Weir Point later than the Weir group, and if I recall correctly far from everyone even got there before Weir and Benteen turned back due to the danger. (I believe Reno was bringing wounded with him, since they could not be left behind, and was last in "line"). During the hault at Weir Point, there was observation, discussions and so on, before they decided to leave. I don't have all the details in my head but 10 minutes seem short to me. As far as "intervened" goes...depends on what kind of intervention you mean. Wiser minds than mine have argued for them only arriving in time to watch the aftermath of the fighting. Sure, many more could have been killed if they just ran towards the Indians in small groups. Organizing this bunch into an attack force would have taken time the Indians never would have given them. The piecemeal arriving Reno-Benteen force could not have changed the outcome. As far as what Weir saw and thought, he took that to the grave. All the best, Noggy
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Post by Diane Merkel on Dec 15, 2022 11:00:58 GMT -6
Welcome, fredinzona!
I agree with Noggy.
If you are trying to pinpoint just the amount of time Weir took watching the end of the battle at Last Stand Hill, it could have been a relatively short time, but the total time of the action of moving and returning obviously took much longer. The different accounts are understandable; you are dealing with recollections which will never be perfectly synchronized between many witnesses.
I believe Weir intended to recount the entire battle to Libbie, but he most likely would have “softened” the details for her as would be typical for that time period.
Weir did not commit suicide! He was a heavy drinker his entire adult life. He was under a doctor’s care while in Brooklyn. The treatment for alcoholics during that time was total withdrawal. That gave him delirium tremens, which caused his death.
Best wishes, Diane
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Post by sirfrancis on Dec 16, 2022 16:32:44 GMT -6
I thought there were accounts from Weir's group of seeing Indians shooting at objects on the ground at close range. Which suggests post battle mutilation / celebration by the Indians. If so there was not much to be gained by 'intervening' other than stirring up the hornets nest onto themselves....which kinda happened....shortly after.
Francis
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Post by Yan Taylor on Dec 17, 2022 13:23:34 GMT -6
I only have two time lines, Fred and Grays
According to Gray Weir could have been watching what was going on for a while, 25 minutes from start to finish;
5:05: Captain Thomas Weir, commander of Company D, departs Reno Hill without permission in search of Custer.
5:15: Reno dispatches 2nd Lieutenant Hare to the north after Weir with orders to open up communication with Custer.
5:22: Benteen departs Reno Hill with Companies H, K and M.
5:25: Captain Weir arrives on Weir Point. 2nd Lieutenant Hare arrives on Weir Point.
5:35: Benteen arrives on Weir Point with Companies H, K, and M.
5:50: Benteen and Weir pull off Weir Point and begin move back to Reno Hill. Company K acts as rear-guard.
6:02: Companies D, H, and M arrive back on Reno Hill.
6:10: Company K arrives back on Reno Hill.
Ian
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Post by shan on Dec 18, 2022 6:48:19 GMT -6
Ian,
It seems rather strange to me that Weir took around 20 minutes to arive at Weir point when its hardly a mile if that. They were mounted and could have coved the distace in half that time should they wish to. Another anomaly is that Hare leaves some 10 miutes after Weir but Gray has him arriving around the samae time, in words he covers the ground much quicker than Weir. Of course this could be Grays mistake, after all those men on the ground weren't watching the minutes go by with a view to testifying at a later date.
My guess is that what he saw was Indians mopping up and looting around the Calhoun area, but other than that, the landscape features would have blocked his view of what was going on down behind Calhoun, and furthermore, too smoke and dust would have prevented him seeing anything of what was happening up at LSH and beyond. That being said, he must have heard the sound of heavy firing coming from that direction, but how long did it last. Was most of it over and done with as he and Benteen began their move back to Reno hill? I suspect it was, and what's more, Benteen, having seen a good deal of action in the civil war, would have been familar with what to look and listen for. I think he knew what had happened to Custer, even if others didn't, but this wasn't the time to talk, no, this wasn't the time to undermine what little spirit the troops still had left, and so he kept his thoughts to himself, and prepared for the buisness of survival.
shan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Dec 18, 2022 13:46:41 GMT -6
Hi Shan.
There maybe more discrepancies in the Gray time lines, good spot! Do you have a copy of the time lines? I can post the segment I have right here if you want to take a look.
Ian
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Post by noggy on Dec 19, 2022 3:18:40 GMT -6
We can't take Gray's timeline as gospel. He wasnt there with a stopwatch. I agree 100% with Shan in that it does seem to be a too large difference between Weir and Hare. But I would also guess there are some "fog of war"-ish factors here:
Did Weir just go straight ahead to Weir Point? Hare would have, but Weir? he was on tje lookout, after all. Would he not advance a little carefully, knowing the Indians were around? Hare would probably see that nothing happened to Weir's group and could therefor speed it up as compared to the the soldiers who left first. How much of a factor would the terrain be? It doesn't take much of a ravine to slow down a mounted unit.
All the best, Noggy
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Post by shan on Dec 19, 2022 11:32:42 GMT -6
Noggy,
Your quite right, Weir would have been cautious, after all there had been Indians up on Sharpshooter rige not long before, and again I think your right about Hare, he would have heard no incoming fire being directed at Weir and so he would have felt a bit more confident about moving along a little quicker.
I have a perennial problem which tends to occur whenever I want to make some comment on this board, one which I probably share with many of you, which is, although I've read numerous books about this battle and been a luker on the board for more than 20 years, whenever I want to call up a fact, I find myself having to with get up and go to another room where I keep all my books, and then spend several hours wading through them in search of the answer, by which time I've lost the will to live.
So let me ask you all this. How long after Reno arrived at the top of the bluffs, was it before A, Benteen joined him, B, how long did it take them to exchange news and organise some kind of defence, and C, how long after this was it before Weir, and then Hare left to go see what was happening with Custer? My rememberence of the various books I've read is that the time frame for Weir leaving can vary from between 45 mimutes to 1 hour 20 minutes. Of course this is extremly relevent to what Weir must have seen once he got to Weir point. There is talk for instance of them seeing what looked like mopping up operations up on Calhoun hill, but I have no sense of whether they saw this when they first arrived, or whether this was shortly before they left. If they did indeed see the end of the action around Calhoun Hill, then it indicates that the Custer fight didn't last very long.
Yan, thanks for the offer, yes, I'd appeciate that,
thanks Shan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Dec 19, 2022 14:43:12 GMT -6
Here we go then.
June 25, 1876
AM 2:50:1st Lieutenant Charles Varnum and Scouts arrive at the Crow’s Nest. 4:00: Varnum and scouts sight the village in the Little Bighorn Valley. 5:00: Varnum and scouts sight cavalry breakfast smoke at the Halt #1 camp. 5:20: Varnum dispatches two Ree scouts to Custer. 5:40: Varnum and scouts sight three Sioux west of the Divide. 6:20: As three Sioux approach, Varnum leads a sortie against them. 6:40: Varnum returns to the Crow’s Nest unsuccessful. Watches three Sioux cross the Divide and move up Davis Creek toward the cavalry camp at Halt #1. 7:20: Two Ree scouts arrive at the Halt #1 camp. Inform Custer a village has been spotted in the Little Bighorn Valley. 7:45: Sergeant Curtis detail departs Halt #1 camp in search of lost pack. 8:00: Custer leaves Halt #1 camp for the Crow’s Nest with Fred Girard, Bloody Knife, Red Star, Little Brave, and Bob Tailed Bull. Captain Thomas Custer Chief Trumpeter Henry Voss get the command up and ready to move. 8:05: Varnum sights three Sioux fleeing as Custer's party approaches from the Halt #1 camp. 8:25: Sergeant Curtis party sights Cheyenne’s rifling through lost pack. Fire on Indians, and then begin return to the command. 8:30: Varnum sights seven Sioux to the north of the Crow’s Nest. Indians vanish as Custer's party approaches from the Halt #1 camp. 8:45: Command departs Halt #1 camp and moves toward the Crow’s Nest. 9:00: Custer party arrives at the Crow’s Nest. 10:07: Command arrives at the Halt #2 camp on Davis Creek. 10:20: Custer and scouts leave Crow’s Nest. Sergeant Curtis detail arrives at Halt #2 camp. Informs Captain Thomas Custer of the situation. 10:30: Custer and scouts are met by Captain Thomas Custer and 1st Lieutenant James Calhoun and are told of lost pack incident. 10:35: Custer and scouts arrive at the Halt #2 camp. Officers Call. 84 men detailed to the Pack Train. Company B detailed to the Pack Train. Command to move at once and attack. 11:45: Command departs Halt #2 camp and moves down Davis Creek.
PM Noon: Command passes the Crow’s Nest and crosses the Divide. 12:05: Command halts and the regiment is divided. 12:15: Custer/Reno Battalions move down Reno Creek. Benteen Battalion moves off to the left. 12:32: Pack Train leaves the Divide and follows Custer and Reno down Reno Creek. 12:41: Benteen reaches first line of bluffs (Plateau). Sights Custer (Grey Horse Troop) on Reno Creek at Valley #1 mouth. 12:45: Benteen met by Sergeant Major William H. Sharrow and Chief Trumpeter Voss with supplementary orders. 1:00: Benteen sights Custer again (Grey Horse Troop) on his way to the second line of bluffs. 1:02: Benteen reaches the second line of bluffs. Custer and Reno at Valley #2 mouth. 1:17:1st Lieutenant Francis Gibson arrives on Ridge C and views Little Bighorn Valley. Benteen Battalion halts in Valley #3. 1:18: Custer and Reno at Valley #3 mouth. 1:22: Pack Train at Valley #1 mouth. 1:28: Custer and Reno reach the Morass and water horses for 15 minutes. 1:30:1st Lieutenant Gibson reports to Benteen. No Indians seen. Benteen begins move down Valley #3 to re-join the command on Reno Creek. 1:47: Pack Train at Valley #2 mouth. 2:03: Custer and Reno reach the Lone Tepee and halt for 12 minutes. 2:16: Benteen arrives on Reno Creek. 2:17: Boston Custer leaves the Pack Train to join his brothers. 2:32: Boston Custer passes Benteen. 2:36: Benteen reaches the Morass and waters horses. 2:37: Pack Train at Valley #3 mouth. 2:43: Custer and Reno reach the Flat. Reno ordered to cross the river and attack the village. Custer orders the scouts to go with Reno. Adjutant William W. Cooke and Captain Myles W. Keogh accompany Reno to the Little Bighorn River. 2:44: Custer sends Company F detail up to the bluffs. Custer sends Crow scouts White Swan and Half Yellow Face ahead to view the village. The scouts join the Reno attack by mistake. 2:45: Boston Custer passes Lone Tepee. 2:53: Reno crosses the river and waters horses. Reforms his battalion for the attack. Captain Keogh returns to the Custer Battalion. 2:54: Company F detail reaches the bluffs and views the village. 2:55: Fred Girard re-crosses the Little Bighorn River and informs Adjutant Cooke that the Sioux are not retreating. Cooke returns to the Custer Battalion. Girard re-crosses the river to re-join Reno attack. 2:56: Benteen Battalion departs Morass. 2:57: Pack Train arrives at the Morass. 3:00: Adjutant Cooke relays Girard's message to Custer. Custer Battalion begins move up to bluffs. 3:03: Reno begins attack and sights Company F detail on the bluffs. 3:04: Reno dispatches Private's McIlhargey and Mitchell to Custer to inform his Indians in force in his front. 3:09: Reno’s messengers link up with Custer Battalion as it moves up to bluffs. 3:10: Scouts move up bench land to capture Sioux ponies. 3:11: Custer Battalion arrives on the bluffs and views Reno's advance. 3:15: Custer dispatches Sergeant Daniel Kanipe with verbal orders for Benteen and Pack Train. 3:17: Pack Train departs the Morass. 3:18: Reno halts and forms a skirmish line. 3:20: Scouts capture some Sioux ponies and start back to Reno Creek. 3:23: Custer Battalion moves into Cedar Coulee. 3:26: Custer views Reno skirmish line from a position near Weir Point. Departs 3:31. 3:33: Reno withdraws battalion into timber. Custer Battalion moves down Cedar Coulee. 3:36: Scouts with Sioux ponies pass Sergeant Kanipe in Reno Creek. 3:38: Custer dispatches Trumpeter Giovanni Martini with written order for Benteen. Company F detail sent to Luce Ridge. 3:40: Benteen Battalion reaches the Lone Tepee. 3:41: Scouts with Sioux ponies pass Benteen. 3:42: Sergeant Kanipe meets Benteen with verbal order. Martini passes Boston Custer as he exits Cedar Coulee. Pack Train passes the Lone Tepee. 3:43: Custer Battalion halts at mouth of Cedar Coulee. 3:44: Scouts with Sioux ponies pass the Pack Train. 3:47: Sergeant Kanipe meets the Pack Train with verbal orders. 3:48: Custer Battalion enters Medicine Tail Coulee. Custer formulates battle plan. 3:50: Boston Custer links up with Custer Battalion and reports situation. 3:53: Reno Battalion begins retreat to the bluffs. Custer Battalion reaches Luce Ridge. 3:54: Scouts switch to Sioux ponies and begin March back to Reno. 3:58: Custer Battalion split into two wings. Right Wing commanded by Captain Keogh to remain on Luce Ridge. Left Wing commanded by Captain George W. Yates to move down toward the river. Headquarters Staff goes with the Left Wing. Company F detail sent to Calhoun Hill. 4:00: Reno Battalion retreats across the Little Bighorn River. 4:02: Trumpeter Martini meets Benteen and delivers written order. 4:04: Scouts on Sioux ponies overtake Pack Train enroute to Reno Hill. 4:08: Left Wing down by the Little Bighorn River in Medicine Tail Coulee. 4:10: Reno Battalion reaches the bluffs and digs in on Reno Hill. 4:13: Left Wing begins move up Deep Coulee. Right Wing departs Luce Ridge for Nye-Cartwright Ridge. 4:18: Right Wing arrives on Nye-Cartwright Ridge. 4:23: Right Wing departs Nye-Cartwright Ridge for Calhoun Hill. 4:27: Pack Train reaches Flat. Sights smoke and troops on Reno Hill. 4:28: Left Wing arrives on Calhoun Hill. 4:30: Benteen Battalion arrives on Reno Hill. 4:33: Right Wing arrives on Calhoun Hill. 4:34: Scouts on Sioux ponies arrive on Reno Hill. 4:35: Company L placed in a skirmish line on Calhoun Hill. Companies C and I placed in reserve east of Battle Ridge. Left Wing and Headquarters Staff depart Calhoun Hill in search of non-combatants. 4:45: Left Wing and Headquarters Staff reach Ford D and sight non-combatants across the river. 4:52: Reno dispatches 2nd Lieutenant Luther Hare to get more ammunition from the Pack Train. 4:55: Left Wing and Headquarters Staff depart Ford D and arrive on low Cemetery Ridge and await Benteen's arrival. 5:00: Left Wing and Headquarters Staff move off low Cemetery Ridge and into the Deep Ravine, Flats, and South Skirmish Line sectors before taking up a position in the South Skirmish Line/Deep Ravine Basin. Company F and the Headquarters Staff remain mounted. Company E dismounts and moves into position on high Cemetery Ridge. 5:05: Captain Thomas Weir, commander of Company D, departs Reno Hill without permission in search of Custer. Captain Keogh sends Company C into Calhoun Coulee to remove the threat the warriors present. Warriors scatter in the face of the advance. 5:10: Chief Lame White Man counter-attacks Company C from his position on Greasy Grass Ridge and rolls up the right flank. Soldiers flee in confusion up Calhoun Ridge. 5:12: 2nd Lieutenant Hare arrives on Reno Hill with the extra ammunition from the Pack Train. 5:15: Reno dispatches 2nd Lieutenant Hare to the north after Weir with orders to open up communication with Custer. Company L shifts its skirmish line to face west and cover the Company C retreat up Calhoun Ridge. 5:20: Warriors in the Henryville sector south of Calhoun Hill flank the new skirmish line. Soldiers abandon Calhoun Hill and flee into the Keogh Sector. 5:22: Benteen departs Reno Hill with Companies H, K and M. 5:25: Captain Weir arrives on Weir Point. 2nd Lieutenant Hare arrives on Weir Point. Pack Train arrives on Reno Hill. As the soldiers flee in the Keogh Sector, Crazy Horse attacks from the north. Indian pressure from three separate directions breaks the Right Wing. Suicide warriors attack the Company E skirmish line on Cemetery Ridge and kill several men and horses. Company E returns to the South Skirmish Line/Deep Ravine Basin area to re-join Company F and the Headquarters Staff. 5:30: Companies E and F and the Headquarters Staff arrive on Last Stand Hill and accept Right Wing survivors. 5:35: Benteen arrives on Weir Point with Companies H, K, and M. Company E deploys off Last Stand Hill and takes up position in the South Skirmish Line Sector. 5:40: Last Stand Hill is overrun. Company E is deflected into Deep Ravine. 5:45: Last Custer soldiers are killed in Deep Ravine. 5:50: Benteen and Weir pull off Weir Point and begin move back to Reno Hill. Company K acts as rear-guard. 6:02: Companies D, H, and M arrive back on Reno Hill. 6:10: Company K arrives back on Reno Hill. Fighting continues until dark.
Ian
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Post by noggy on Dec 20, 2022 4:20:24 GMT -6
I have a perennial problem which tends to occur whenever I want to make some comment on this board, one which I probably share with many of you, which is, although I've read numerous books about this battle and been a luker on the board for more than 20 years, whenever I want to call up a fact, I find myself having to with get up and go to another room where I keep all my books, and then spend several hours wading through them in search of the answer, by which time I've lost the will to live. Same, plus I am one of those here with the least years of research behind me so I'm way below msot of the psoters level around here. In addition, all the contradicting sources serve to cloud up stuff when I try recallin details :S All the best, Noggy
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 20, 2022 11:26:32 GMT -6
We can't take Gray's timeline as gospel. He wasnt there with a stopwatch. I agree 100% with Shan in that it does seem to be a too large difference between Weir and Hare. But I would also guess there are some "fog of war"-ish factors here: Did Weir just go straight ahead to Weir Point? Hare would have, but Weir? he was on tje lookout, after all. Would he not advance a little carefully, knowing the Indians were around? Hare would probably see that nothing happened to Weir's group and could therefor speed it up as compared to the the soldiers who left first. How much of a factor would the terrain be? It doesn't take much of a ravine to slow down a mounted unit. All the best, Noggy I think we should realize that Gray built his timeline by fitting accounts to the use of military speeds of travel. So he used four mph for movement down Reno Creek and ignored accounts that would not fit. Fred used the accounts and the speeds were determined by the accounts. I prefer Fred's method. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by shan on Dec 20, 2022 15:40:22 GMT -6
Ian,
is that Grays timeline, and if so, does it differ very much from others, Fred's for instance? Once again, reading through it, I'm amazed at how precise it is regarding minutes. In fact at one level, one might almost imagine almost everyone involved must have spent almost as much time looking at their imaginary watches as firing at the enemy.
I had to pop over to the nearby village today to get some grocerys, it's only a mile as a fast crow can fly, and maybe two ~ or possibly three miles by a series of tiny lanes. Now I have a clock in the car which I rarely look at, but if you were to ask how long it took, I could only guess, and that guess would range from about 10 minutes to maybe fifteen, so, as you can see, I'm somewhat suspecious of these times.
There is an aurgument going on on the other board, one we've heard countless times before, about precisly had long Reno's men spent on the skirmish line. I had thought I might dip in and have my say, but in many ways it seems pointless. It's almost as if we can't talk about this battle without finding ourselves tied to the page by a plethora of various timings.
thanks again, Shan
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Post by noggy on Dec 21, 2022 8:05:18 GMT -6
I'm somewhat suspecious of these times. Same here, Shan. I look at these timelines as useful tools which can help our/my understanding of the battle somewhat along the way, but they are only indicative. After all they cover several hours of the 25th, many during battle, and imagine all the small hick-ups and stops and other events which could have "stolen" a minute or two here and there compared to the "move from A to B in x amount of minutes" the entire way...they add up. But again, I don't view these as gospel or anything like it, but do enjoy them and find them interesting. I know Fred put a lot of work into his and it always made a lot of sense to me. Michno operated with placing events within ten minute long "windows", which also works well imo. All the best, Noggy
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Post by herosrest on Dec 21, 2022 8:47:27 GMT -6
If you measure from the RBDS to the peak, it's a little over a mile. I doubt Weir's company sat on Reno Hill and were probably on the crest of SSR which is around a 1,000 yards from WP. That's a gait/speed issue which AZR is remarkably familiar with. Anyone for a donut?
Weir set out after Custer with his orderly, that was either Sgt. Flanagan or the Sgt. tagged along. Company D under Edgerley did not accompany Weir but rather followed him. As they moved out after Weir, they passed returning Ree scouts who had been watching the Custer fight and returned because one might assume they felt going to Custer was not possible or worthwhile. There were around 10 of the scouts and clearly named and recorded in the Arikara Narrative.
Weir went out first. Edgerley and Company D followed. Things then get a little fuzzy but Walter M. Camp did interview Sgt. Flanagan in 1910 so that helps clear things up.
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