dgfred
Junior Member
Posts: 69
|
Post by dgfred on Jan 24, 2017 15:19:53 GMT -6
Plus you have the women, kids, and old men picking over the battlefield for a day+
I have also heard mention of the youngsters shooting arrows at the bodies. No telling what happened when.
|
|
|
Post by bosshawg on Jan 27, 2017 11:00:06 GMT -6
I am new to this board but have been reading as a guest for a few years. I have no military experience and have only read about six books on Custer and the Little Big Horn, one of them was Fred's book. I am clearly in over my head on this board. Early on in my reading I believed the White Cow Bull story of Custer being shot at Ford B. That issue has been discussed several times on the board. I now wonder if maybe Custer was shot early on as he approached or attempted to cross at Ford D. If he had all five companies with him at Ford D and was wounded or killed, would they have withdrawn to LSH and then possibly Calhoun gone south to in some way look for or assist in the expected arrival of Benteen? Could this have caused the battlefield to look as it did? I hope this is not too remedial for this board.
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Jan 27, 2017 11:48:17 GMT -6
Welcome bosshawg. All of what you propose is possible. I don't think GAC was wounded at either ford. Nobody would have chosen LSH to defend, they were pinned there. If returning from the Ford D area they were cut off there, as the others would have been cut off in the areas in which they were found. This is not the traditional theory, but it certainly makes GAC look smarter if he took all 5 companies north. Ask yourself, when confronted by that size village would you continue to cut down your force and firepower. The movements would easily fit within Fred's timeline, events would need to be juggled. I will probably be again taken to task on this.
There are no thoughts broached that are too remedial for this board. Theories may certainly be shot down by reason and alternative proof.
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Jan 27, 2017 16:01:40 GMT -6
bosshawg,
Welcome aboard. Look forward to exchanging ideas and opinions with you.
Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by wild on Jan 28, 2017 6:54:55 GMT -6
If he had all five companies with him at Ford D and was wounded or killed, would they have withdrawn to LSH and then possibly Calhoun gone south to in some way look for or assist in the expected arrival of Benteen? Could this have caused the battlefield to look as it did? I hope this is not too remedial for this board. Welcome Boss If you are hard pressed you do not weaken your force to seek assistance. The configuration of the markers do not support a 5 troop advance to Ford D. A 2 troop advance to Ford D gives rise to more questions than it answers. Ford D is an illusion.The only difference between a ford and a non ford is probably no more than a foot of water.
I'm away from home at the moment so without times or maps . When I return home I will check times and distances involved in the scenario suggesting that the vast bulk of the Indians retrograded towards Custer immediately on Reno's retreat. Or if anyone else wants to research it .....time and distance from Custer's column at the point when Reno departs. Cheers all Richard
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 28, 2017 11:21:21 GMT -6
Richard
Markers only indicate one point in time. That time is when they were placed. Some are consistent with wooden markers placed on the burial day. The markers do not indicate time or direction of arrival from travel. One possibility is that the 5 companies were moving toward Ford D and reversed direction back toward MTC but were stopped in the process by lots of Indians willing to fight.
Keogh could have been on the leading edge of a retrograde.
As far as the fords I disagree with you. It is not the river itself (depth of water) regarding the LBH that determines military use of fords. It is the terrain of the ingress and egress. From a military viewpoint you would want it as wide as possible and clear ingress and egress. (bluffs, steep banks, trees). Ford A also was unopposed which was not likely at any other fording place.
I think we have confused ourselves with what a single horseman or individuals (Indians) could do as compared to 5 companies moving to contact and possibly under fire. The only place you could have several companies crossing on line is in the Ford Ds area. I agree with Benteen that you could cross anywhere. The follow up to that is that you might not have access to get into the river (bluff) or get out of it (bluff, steep bank, heavy vegetation) anywhere.
Regards
Steve
|
|
|
Post by wild on Jan 28, 2017 12:56:08 GMT -6
Good points AZ I think I'm correct in saying that in relation to the ford issue it is an unopposed crossing that I'm suggesting, Is the ford D scenario indicating that Custer was attempting an opposed crossing ?
Markers only indicate one point in time. Termination point. But the configuration coincides with what one would expect the configuration of a column in motion. HQ ,battalion ,troop and officer positions all fit.
Gotta catch a plane, Seeya Richard
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 29, 2017 9:47:29 GMT -6
Good points AZ I think I'm correct in saying that in relation to the ford issue it is an unopposed crossing that I'm suggesting, Is the ford D scenario indicating that Custer was attempting an opposed crossing ? Markers only indicate one point in time.Termination point. It would be nice if it were true but I think the spurious markers are proof that not all markers represent termination points. But the configuration coincides with what one would expect the configuration of a column in motion. HQ ,battalion ,troop and officer positions all fit. I agree that they were in motion but my current opinion was they returning from an attempt at Ford Ds. Gordie started me thinking about this and he may have got that from Weibert who also believed. I think it could also represent an opposed withdrawal and leap frogging of companies.
Gotta catch a plane, Seeya Richard Have a safe trip. Regards Steve
|
|
|
Post by wild on Jan 30, 2017 7:13:29 GMT -6
Hi AZ Home safe and sound thank you.
I agree there are spurious markers but they apply to individuals not to the command units, companys and battalions.
When Custer desended from Weir Point he had 19 minutes before the Indians engaging Reno got on his case. From Weir Point to LSH it is approx 3 miles. To Ford D and return is an extra 2 miles 3miles for some units. The question is can he reach Ford D spend time in area and get back to LSH a distance of 5/6 miles in 19 minutes? I don't think that is possible.
If he it was his intention to try to attack from the North and he got beyond LSH there is no reason for him to do a U-turn and head back into what was coming up behind him.
Cheers Richard
|
|
|
Post by welshofficer on Feb 3, 2017 18:12:57 GMT -6
Wild,
That would depend upon whether Keogh was with Custer/Yates on any advance to LSH and beyond...?
WO
|
|
|
Post by wild on Feb 6, 2017 11:52:11 GMT -6
Hi WO
That would depend upon whether Keogh was with Custer/Yates on any advance to LSH and beyond...? If Custer splits from Keogh he loses control of 3 companies. That is too high a price to pay for a totally uneccessary ford.And my estimate is that Custer just does not have the time to perform all the maneuvers that are attributed to him. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by welshofficer on Feb 6, 2017 13:26:40 GMT -6
Hi WO That would depend upon whether Keogh was with Custer/Yates on any advance to LSH and beyond...? If Custer splits from Keogh he loses control of 3 companies. That is too high a price to pay for a totally uneccessary ford.And my estimate is that Custer just does not have the time to perform all the maneuvers that are attributed to him. Cheers Wild, If Custer takes 5 companies to the Ford D area, if, he should have the strength to cross and place himself in the valley. That gives him (a very long way) Terry behind him, the village in front of him and the pony herd to his right front. He has seen the undulating bluffs and he sure as hell doesn't want to go back up there. So the Ford D area is really whether he took a look with Yates, whilst concentrating his command on Battle Ridge with the expected Benteen, or never went there. WO
|
|
|
Post by wild on Feb 6, 2017 15:31:13 GMT -6
Hi WO The configuration of the markers just does not support 5 troops getting to the Ford D area and returning. If he takes the command down to the Ford D area he must attack. Anything else is a total waste of time. It leaves everything in the air with the regiment scattered . It hands the initiative to the enemy. Cheers
|
|
dgfred
Junior Member
Posts: 69
|
Post by dgfred on Feb 6, 2017 16:04:33 GMT -6
Assuming Custer thinks a 3 company forces can force a big village back (Reno)... would he not think 2 or 3 companies slamming into the middle of the village might do the same. Then take HQ and other 2 to close up the north village move-out. Just a thought.
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Feb 6, 2017 16:43:32 GMT -6
Hi WO The configuration of the markers just does not support 5 troops getting to the Ford D area and returning. If he takes the command down to the Ford D area he must attack. Anything else is a total waste of time. It leaves everything in the air with the regiment scattered . It hands the initiative to the enemy. Cheers The theoretical work generating and developing these scenarios beyond LSH lead into Custer's wounding or death at Northern fords.
|
|