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Post by crzhrs on Jan 2, 2017 13:14:36 GMT -6
Custer had two wounds: a chest and head wound. More than likely the chest wound was the one that incapacitated him and the head wound was a coup d'etat by an Indian or possibly a fellow soldier to keep him from being taken alive by Indians.
For Custer to be shot in the chest he more than likely would either have to be standing or riding his horse. I can't imagine him standing around and making a target of himself while fighting. That leaves the possibility of being hit while riding his horse.
That opens up the controversy of whether he was hit early in the fight while attempting to cross the ford/river and being brought back to LSH.
If so it could tell us why it seemed that Custer had the village in his grasp but failed to do so.
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Post by Bruce Robert on Jan 2, 2017 19:33:49 GMT -6
I like this idea, though not as an explanation for losing the battle, as I don't think he ever had the "village in his grasp."
I would suggest it might be as simple as "c'est la guerre," as Kellogg was also hit in the area of Ford D. Also, if this speculation is correct, that the fatal injury was friendly, as the enemy wouldn't offer him a "clean" kill upon finding him incapacitated.
My reason is this: I can't quite wrap my head around this delay, or waiting period by Custer around Cemetery Ridge. However, and as (too) neat a package as this idea provides, his being hit seriously/mortally at this stage of the battle, the command would have stopped to give aid, desperately attempting to stabilize Custer. At this point, it no longer is about waiting for Benteen, or what might be happening with Keogh, but what the hell do we do now. And in this delay, the rest is history.
Having said this, I realize this is not "provable" based upon his wounds, or anything else for that matter.
Cheers, Bruce
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Post by fred on Jan 3, 2017 7:09:22 GMT -6
...as Kellogg was also hit in the area of Ford D. Kellogg's body was found several hundred yards from Ford D. I suspect he may have been hit there, but that is not where he died... or at least where his body lay. There was no "delay" or "waiting period" on Cemetery Ridge. Like almost everything else with this battle, this is another event or series of comments blown totally out of proportion. A comment is made years later by a tribal historian was was not there and suddenly it is taken as literal gospel. Yes, Custer, HQ, and companies E and F spent a number of minutes there, but they were hardly idle... and in fact, were overrun, forcing the command up the ridgeline to Last Stand Hill. I wrote an article for the 2016, CBHMA's journal, Greasy Grass, essentially explaining the use of every minute Custer was atop that ridge. The timing and activity is also explained fairly well, I think, in Strategy. At some point-- and the action on Cemetery Ridge is as good as any... maybe even better-- you become 100% correct. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Jan 3, 2017 7:13:34 GMT -6
Horse,
Always loved your posts... every one of them; still do. You are one of the true pros with this stuff. Hope you are well... and Happy New Year.
Very best wishes, Fred.
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Post by crzhrs on Jan 3, 2017 8:32:07 GMT -6
I tried to come up with something that hasn't been discussed before (I don't think anyways). Custer's wounds have been discussed numerous times: which was the fatal one?, did he get wounded early in the fight thus stopping the entire " battle plan"? if so, who took over command? etc.
If there is a way to determine when/where GAC was wounded it could explain a lot of action that might have taken place afterward.
Obviously we don't know for sure when/where Custer was wounded but if it was early on and whoever took over at that point, then the "fault" for GAC's defeat could lay somewhere else as far as who made the decisions once Custer was down.
Up to the time Custer was not wounded he was in charge, after that who knows!
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Post by wild on Jan 9, 2017 10:42:49 GMT -6
Legend spares Custer the humilation of mutilation . It provides him with two clean hero wounds. Saints are spared corruption, likewise the military spares it's battle commanders vulgar wounds. Their hero was not felled by a primitive stone age weapon, arrow or tomahalk, no he died a soldier's death under a fusilade of bullets. And if you believe that.......
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Post by george50 on Jan 23, 2017 13:30:11 GMT -6
I would like to Thank You folks for allowing me to come on to your blog and take part in your discussions. I would also like to say that I am in no way the expert that you guys are and that is the main reason that I am here. To ask questions and learn from those who have researched and studied Custer and the events at Little Big Horn. For many years I have read that other than the wounds to his temple and chest Custer's body was not mutilated except that his eardrums had been pierced. However recently I have read from a couple of different sources (and off the top of my head I can't remember exactly where I read them) that in addition to those wounds that (and my apologies for the following graphic statement) an arrow had been pushed up penis. Has anybody else read or heard that as well and if so what do you think about the validity of that claim?
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 23, 2017 13:48:26 GMT -6
I have heard the same, can not speak to the validity. Welcome to the board!
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dgfred
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by dgfred on Jan 23, 2017 14:44:06 GMT -6
I have only heard one version 'to the groin area'. Try to look for where it was.
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Post by Colt45 on Jan 23, 2017 16:53:41 GMT -6
One of the things we have to remember is that we have no real way of knowing if Custer was mutilated or not. At the time, the Victorian era folks would have wanted Custer to be a glorified hero and they would have wanted to save his wife all the gory details of what happened to him. It is possible he was mutilated like the others, but the officers discovering the body or those higher up wanted to spare the public and his wife. It also made for a better story, that the hero was not mutilated and died the gallant death, as portrayed by Errol Flynn.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 23, 2017 17:56:47 GMT -6
DucemusNot many soldiers were left alive by this time. We surrounded them and kept shooting them down. They acted like drunk people. Some of them shot wildly into the air, not hitting any of us. The Army was crazy to have sent such a small band of soldiers against us, anyway. They could never have beaten us in that fight.
One soldier still alive toward the last wore a buckskin coat with fringes on it. I thought this man was leader of the soldiers, because he had ridden ahead of all the others as they came along the ridge. He saw me now and shot at me twice with his revolver, missing me both times. I raised my rifle and fired at him; he went down. Then I saw another soldier crawl over to him. The leader was dead.
By the middle of the afternoon all the soldiers were dead. The fight lasted only a short time. All of us were crazy. We had killed many soldiers. They had attacked us and meant to wipe us out. We were fighting for our lives and homeland. Cries of victory went up. Our women came through the timber by the river and began to strip the dead soldiers.Joseph White Bull's account (given in sign) of the battle to David Humphreys Miller in his Echoes article. Here is a much considered account of a possible officer kill to which all the usual constraints apply. Billy Cross was interviewed at Powder River on July 4th, after word arrived with Far West of the defeat and offered the first detail of Custer's death. Quote - 'The soldiers told me that General Custer was killed. I didn't see. (Here, another scout was interpreted to say that he was told by a sergeant that Custer was killed down in the bottom.' Thus we have Custer shot in the bottom. With regard basics of Cemetery Ridge theory and subsequent developments since Kuhlman's Battle Ridge Extension tour de farce, it is helpful to understand Fox's several underlying premises.
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dgfred
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by dgfred on Jan 23, 2017 19:44:40 GMT -6
Somebody wearing a buckskin coat leading... but what if Custer had removed his? Didn't some other officer's have similar coats? It was hot too... hmmm.
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Post by crzhrs on Jan 24, 2017 11:50:33 GMT -6
The source for the arrow through Custer's genitals is from a letter Godfrey wrote years later. The letter is in a private collection. See Custer's Field: A Scene of Sickening Ghastly Horror" by Francis Taunton
Remember, the dead at LSH were lying around for 2 days in the sun & heat, with insects and scavengers doing their work on the bodies. Everyone there, including Custer would not be in the best condition, let alone laying in respose as if he were asleep.
It was bad enough Custer and his entire command had been wiped out but to have Custer dead, chopped up, with insects, scavengers and the heat/sun doing the rest of the work it is impossible for Custer or anyone else to be found in a "pristine" state.
It was a cover up, plain and simple to spare Libby and the public.
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Post by benteen on Jan 24, 2017 12:00:26 GMT -6
Somebody wearing a buckskin coat leading... but what if Custer had removed his? Didn't some other officer's have similar coats? It was hot too... hmmm. dgfred, I have read more than once that Custer had removed his buckskin jacket and tied it to the rear of his saddle. It doesnt prove he did of course, but i believe there is some merit in that opinion. Be Well Dan
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Post by george50 on Jan 24, 2017 12:33:22 GMT -6
The source for the arrow through Custer's genitals is from a letter Godfrey wrote years later. The letter is in a private collection. See Custer's Field: A Scene of Sickening Ghastly Horror" by Francis Taunton Remember, the dead at LSH were lying around for 2 days in the sun & heat, with insects and scavengers doing their work on the bodies. Everyone there, including Custer would not be in the best condition, let alone laying in respose as if he were asleep. It was bad enough Custer and his entire command had been wiped out but to have Custer dead, chopped up, with insects, scavengers and the heat/sun doing the rest of the work it is impossible for Custer or anyone else to be found in a "pristine" state. It was a cover up, plain and simple to spare Libby and the public. Thank You for verifying that. I remembered reading about that but I could not remember the source.
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