Plains Indians with Napoleonic swords true or false?

[wblastoff]

hi,
I would not believe it if I did not own it!
I need the help of you guys, for I seem to have exhausted my path.

This sword is “supposed” to have been scavenged from an Indian battlefield, Montana in the late 19th century. Upon reading this both my friend and I (who is also knowledgeable about swords) belly laughed out loud and immediately dismissed this claim. This sword is Prussian Blucher 1811 and these are always veteran pick-ups from WW1. I sent pictures to some experts and everyone agreed it was most probably a Prussian 1811 based on length and tip. So my friend and I had a good laugh and I put this sword away. This sword continued to nag at me in the back of my mind. (If you are a collector you know an object has a story, and when it has not been told to your satisfaction, it pulls you back to it.) This sword pulled me back to it.

I proceeded to go over this sword (painstakingly) centimeter by centimeter with 25x magnification and then it appeared on the spine not legible to the naked eye “Josh H. Reddel & Co” This was not a Prussian sword but an English Model 1796 light Calvary sword. This sword had been cut and rounded at the tip. So I think, “ok cool”, but this still makes it an antique during the Indian Wars and puts it over 4,000 miles away from the plains of Montana. I truly believe, (I have not verified this) that 19 century U.S. Army regulations would not allow a U.S. Trooper to carry this “antique” sword in the 1870’s and more importantly why would a trooper want to? (I’m guessing he would be ridiculed!?)


So I get a headache and put this sword away again, until I stumble upon this on the internet, Native American Weapons: “There are many references in literature – descriptions, drawings and pictographs of swords by North American Indians Many of them were probably English, Model l796, light cavalry swords which were surpluses after the Napoleonic Wars These were sold throughout the American West, and one outlet in the l840s was the Bordeaux Trading Post near present- day Chadron. They became a type of status symbol, particularly amongst some of the plains tribes”. It starts to appear to me that the story of this sword being picked-up on a Montana battlefield is not as funny as I had originally thought.

What I have is an English Model 1796 light cavalry sword made by Josh H.Reddel & Co. with an inscription. This sword “may” have possibly been picked off of a Montana battlefield. It “may” have been owned by the Sioux. It may have historical significance and I may awake from this and commit Hari-kari with this sword.

Sword:


This sword has been exposed to the elements on the right side know more than a few years. (I base that on my experience with swords, some 25 odd years, with the emphasize on odd)
1796 English light Calvary sword
Manufacturer: Josh H. Reddel & Co
Length blade 30.5” (shortened, spear point removed)
Sword hallmarks: Josh H. Reddel & Co (spine)
Small English crown (right side fuller hardly visible through rust, visible only with 25x magnification only)
Inscription in gold almost completely faded:

“Found at Gen Custers Slaughter By The Indians”

(Gold paint appears period to 1870-1910)

Now as your laughing, for I did... can you let me know your opinion please?

I purchased the sword myself in New Jersey. I will never get any more info from the seller. The gentleman who sold the sword had no knowledge of swords or that the inscription was on it. This was a doorstop to the seller!

I know through my research that “The 7th Calvary boxed up and sent back their swords to Fort Abraham Lincoln” on the way to the Little Big Horn.

Please send me your imput as I have reached the end of my path


Best regards

Bill Rhumm

Attachments:

[fred]

Bill,

It is entirely possible what you have could be something important. You are correct, the troops crated their sabers at the Powder River Depot. There were two officers however, 1LT Charles De Rudio and 1LT Edward Mathey who possibly carried theirs. De Rudio is fairly well believed, but fewer people know of Mathey's.

De Rudio is rather interesting. In the summer of 1870, De Rudio commanded Company K and escorted a train of settlers in Kansas. They presented him with a saber as a thank-you for his protection. In addition, the man was educated at the Austrian Military Academy and served on Garibaldi’s staff in Italy. He was the son of Count Ercole Placedo di Rudio and Countess Elisabetta de Domini. He participated in an assassination attempt on Napoleon III. He was sentenced to death, but the sentence was commuted to life and he was sent to French Guiana. So he may have had such an instrument and could have carried it at the LBH. It is unknown-- at least to me-- if he retained it after the battle, but it is doubtful because of the situation he found himself in.

There are always accounts of Indians with all sorts of weapons and those accounts could very well be correct because of their Anglicized names. For example, there were three warriors at the battle whose name(s) contained the word sword. One was a member of the Bad Face band better known as Hunts The Enemy, an Oglala, also known as Owns Sword. He wouldn't have that name unless it were true. A second was also an Oglala, known merely as Sword; and the third was called Wooden Sword.

While not definitive by any means, there is every likelihood one of these fellows could have been the owner of your little gem.

Hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[herosrest]

Ducemus

www.welchdakotapapers.com/2012/02/shields-pictographs-and-swords-2/#circling-hawks-

[wblastoff]

This information is Invaluable
Thank you guys VERY much!!!

[bginther]

Sir I have documentation on the 1796 Light Cavalry Sabre and I think will bring you the insight you are looking for. My email address is [e-mail]. I have a Sabre in my possession that was found in a field near a creek in northwest KS. It took me some time but I was able to get answers. Please email me personally so that I can send you images of the sword, and the 1980s research article I obtained from Museum of the Furtrade in Chadron, NE. I hope to hear from you.

Kind regards,

Blaine Ginther

Read more: lbha.proboards.com/conversation/14733#ixzz3yl1CA1k9

[callmeconrad]

Hi Bill,

You may also want to check out this drawing done in the 1920's by the Sioux Sam Kills Two:

ccdl.libraries.claremont.edu/cdm/ref/collection/pap/id/12

Cheers,

conrad

[tubman13]

Mar 17, 2016 7:51:22 GMT -6 callmeconrad said:

Hi Bill,

You may also want to check out this drawing done in the 1920's by the Sioux Sam Kills Two:

ccdl.libraries.claremont.edu/cdm/ref/collection/pap/id/12

Cheers,

conrad

Conrad,

I don't think the acquisition would have been at the LBH, as all sabers were stored, save one and as I recall it was with DeRudio or another officer, with its primary function to kill snakes. I may be wrong about the single saber, but the issued sabers were boxed and not carried. I do like the pix.

Regards,

Tom 

[callmeconrad]

Mar 17, 2016 10:10:21 GMT -6 tubman13 said:

Conrad,

I don't think the acquisition would have been at the LBH, as all sabers were stored, save one and as I recall it was with DeRudio or another officer, with its primary function to kill snakes. I may be wrong about the single saber, but the issued sabers were boxed and not carried. I do like the pix.

Regards,

Tom 

Hi Tom,

Agreed.  I don't know who was responsible for that description about the sabres taken from BLBH, but they obviously didn't know much about the particulars of the battle.  It makes me wonder what made them decide to make up that detail.

Cheers,

conrad