|
Post by Beth on Nov 9, 2015 19:57:50 GMT -6
I tend to agree Fred but people always want to put so much emphasis on the ammo so I included it. Between ammo and a pack train, you can change the speed of the ammo's movement easier than the speed of the mules. Pack mules can only move at the speed of a laden mule--if you want to speed up the cargo the mules carry you have to move the load to a faster conveyance or I suppose lighten the load of the mules so they are less laden. If you want to free up the number of men traveling with the pack train. You would have to secure the train with the minimum amount of guard and send everyone else forward. Unfortunately the note was unclear about what was needed the most-the cargo, the escort or both equally.
Also I don't think at times people realize how much the nuances of words change with time--or even from person or person. There are too many phrases like "Come on" and "be quick" in the message that are easily nuanced for the instructions to be as clear to anyone reading it as it was to the person who wrote it.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Nov 9, 2015 20:07:35 GMT -6
Did Custer and Reno traveled down on opposite sides of the creek? Yes. All the way until Custer approached the lone tepee. That is when Reno was ordered over to the creek's north side. Yes. Up to what I have termed, "Middle Knoll." Reno turned left just before the knoll (around its east side) and recrossed the creek; Custer continued on, probably just to the western end of the knoll where he ran into Cooke. Custer's, until it turned off to the right. It was the larger trail and it was also a lodgepole trail making it clearly distinguishable from Reno's shod trail. I would have followed the larger trail: it would stand to reason-- if I were reading signs and saw the split-- the larger tracks and the larger trail would have been the one Custer followed. If I were Benteen, I would not have taken the subsidiary trail. shes, Fred. Thanks Fred. Someday I will get it down in my head. I never really question so much what was done then, just my understanding of what happened, why it happened and how each action effects the next. As always I appreciate your replies. Beth
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Nov 9, 2015 20:16:52 GMT -6
Where was Custer when he received Reno's messages?
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 10, 2015 6:34:00 GMT -6
The curious interesting observation is the straight line sequence which indicates quite seriousy, that something or one, didn't know what they were doing. I guess we'll have to blame that arifact collector P.W.Norris who removed bucket loads of cartridges from LSH and also, Joe Blummer! Who was Vaughan's informant and guide.
Scott Pitsch analysis.
We are looking for a line of retreat indicating three companies abreast, charging to the east from a timbered location, and straight into a river. Reno halted to avoid one ditch and charged headlong into another, full of flowing water!
HR
Vaughn has a hand drawn map not a Google map. Here is my issue with his map. He has Reno's troopers exiting the timber from the rear which fits no description then he has Reno moving out onto the valley floor right in front of the Pitsch location. Once Vaughn gets the troops in the right place every indication is the same as the Pitsch location and is correct.
I think you need to find something that states the troops did not ride out of their location and up on the valley floor. They broke through the Indian lines. The Indians state that in their accounts.
Where does Vaughn place the Indians that the troopers encountered as they came out of the timber?
You left out numerous Pitsch dots in your representation. The majority of artifacts are in the Pitsch timber area.
Why?
Regards
AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by fred on Nov 10, 2015 8:45:32 GMT -6
Where was Custer when he received Reno's messages? Somewhere between Middle Knoll and 3,411. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Nov 10, 2015 8:49:56 GMT -6
... people always want to put so much emphasis on the ammo so I included it. To be honest, they have no right to do so. The word "ammunition" is not in the note and its inclusion is only rife speculation. And garbage like that always causes problems leading to false conclusions and untruths. It is no different than claiming Custer was mortally wounded or killed outright at Ford B. All that speculation does is muddy the waters. You can always move two mules faster than you can 175 mules. And that is what happened here. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Nov 10, 2015 8:51:18 GMT -6
There are too many phrases like "Come on" and "be quick" in the message that are easily nuanced for the instructions to be as clear to anyone reading it as it was to the person who wrote it. Not a lot different from message boards and forums, is it? Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Nov 10, 2015 10:17:39 GMT -6
... all good thoughts but Custer chose both adj. Cooke and messenger Martini. One could say that's all he had to work with however as you point out the importance so great he could have written the order himself. No, no, no...!! Cooke was regimental adjutant and an extremely capable and well-thought-of officer. That would have been standing operating procedure: you issue an order through your adjutant: he maintains the written record and signs the written orders. Cooke-- not Custer-- would have chosen Martini. If you count Kanipe as a messenger-- and even if he was not, he fulfilled the role of one-- Martini was the 4th messenger Custer sent out after crossing the divide. Martini was the only one given a written note. Sharon was the regimental sergeant major and was born in England; Voss was born in Germany, but was in his 3rd enlistment and was the chief trumpeter, so he spoke good English; Kanipe was born in the U. S.; but Martini had only been in this country since 1873, and he spoke only broken English, so that-- in my opinion-- is why he was given a written note. And Cooke would have selected him, not Custer. Martini was merely another orderly and Custer had several of them that day. Best wishes, Fred. that makes sense as in conveying a written order Lassie could have done so. Of course we are ignoring Martini's tale of getting it first as verbal then a rethink by command and Cooke produces a written order. A Beth pointed out we don't feel pressure at this point, actually elation (hat's). Regardless of Cooke's advancement skill's which is what drives most idea's of "quality" you speak of : he wrote a piss poor order.
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Nov 10, 2015 10:28:01 GMT -6
Magpie, Thanks for the response. My fault not yours, I know what I want to say but sometimes foul it up. My point was not that Custer should have written the note, but rather if he had used a different messenger, there would have been no need for any note. The messenger could have told Benteen what Custer wanted. In addition, when Benteen asked what was going on, he probably would have gotten more information then "They skedadling" Be Well Dan PS...I dont want anyone to think I am knocking Pvt Martini. He was a brave man and turned out to be a fine soldier as he retired a Sgt. He was just the wrong man for this assignment. That was not his fault, but Custers. I have often thought Benteen attaching "They skedadling" quote to Martini who's been shot at, his horse wounded and just seen Reno draw up a skirmish line is a mistake and the quote belongs to Kanipe who is quoted by others to have that sentiment ("They skedadling"). Of course if Benteen at the RCOI had mentioned Martni's shot up horse it wouldn't fit his idea he was selling: there seemed to be no reason to hurry. Also Martini told Graham that "they" put word in my mouth at the RCOI and thus perhaps Kanipes words?
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Nov 10, 2015 10:42:47 GMT -6
Beth, good question. This is conjecture of course but Benteen had scouted ahead and seen that Reno was in the timber in the valley he would have gone to his aid. Oh, there's that scouting thing again. Game Grade on scouting on June 25th. -D. Benteen was many things but stupid was not one of them. If he had known that Reno was in trouble (scouting again) that's where he would have gone. How do we know? Because when he did find Reno in trouble on Reno's Hill, he went directly to his aid. He does not advance past GO (Monopoly talk). He did not march on trying to find Custer. They only march on later when Weir heads north. They see what's up, get attacked and retreatback to the hill. First I want to clarify something about my own feelings about LBH because lately because there have been a number of new members and I haven't been an active poster. I believe that every single person fought to the best of their ability that day--both on the US and NA side. I don't believe that there was intentional grudge settling or malfeasance. There may of been a few shirkers, but some people just break down and are unable to handle crisis situations. I believe that the side who made the fewest mistakes and used the field the best, won the battle and that the study of LBH is about understanding the mistakes made and how the terrain itself was used as an advantage or became a disadvantage. I need clarification on a point. Did Custer and Reno traveled down on opposite sides of the creek? Did they ever once they separated travel in such a way that they would only leave one combined trail? (Like one following behind the other by a few minutes) Did Benteen follow Reno's trail or Custers? I am sure it's all in Fred's book but at the moment I am unable to access it because I am on a kid's computer. As for why no one from Reno Hill sent someone after the NA left the valley? I have several ideas why they would not. 1. it would weaken their position and they had no reason to believe the NA warriors had not stated behind. 2. They thought they were the lost party--the one in need of a rescue. This might be my mommy brain at play but we always told our kids if they got lost, they were to stay put and let us --the parent come back and find them. Otherwise they would only make the getting lose worse by wondering in unknown directions. 3. Pure exhaustion and needing time to recover some before deciding what to do. They had to physically and emotionally drained by the time the NA pulled away. I would not have been surprised if the majority of them after taking care of food and water just fell into a deep sleep. I believe the answer is simple. Our last order, in writing is to bring the packs up and we are in a combat zone so we will wait for them to come up and proceed as a unit. Along those same lines I think it is likely that the Weir/Reno arguement was: "I hear Custer and I want to go towards Custer ( "I love him so") verses "I don't hear a thing ( =I went through the ACW lost some hearing and my ears are ringing from this last engagement {something we know today about hearing}) and we are under orders to bring up the packs and we are not moving till they are up". I then see Weir seeing the last of the packs coming up jumps on his horse and heads out. I think Reno and his men's ears were shot but they lacked the knowledge we now have why their hearing was impaired. So gradually everybody moves forward towards Custer's corpse. Just think if they did so before the packs are up and go to Weir point and yell "Yo-Ho, did your forget us" and the Indians return and bucher the strung out packs. Anyway my idea's may not be.......
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Nov 10, 2015 11:26:01 GMT -6
By bringing up ammunition I was not inferring I was a believer only addressing if that was GAC need he would have said so.
As no one has acknowleged the thought I repeat it as a broken record and ask why not: Order says Benteen bring up packs or as Fred say's "consolidate". Reno's hill is essentially on GAC's trail so consolidation there kills two birds. Also I maintain the Weir/Reno arguement probably went : "WE ARE UNDER ORDERS TO BRING UP THE PACKS AND WE ARE GOING TO WAIT TILL THEY COME UP AND THEN PROCEED AS A UNIT". This is exactly what occurred as Weir left just as the last of the train was coming up and Reno did not reprimand him for gross insubordination but followed him. I do not see this as giving up command as Fred does. Reno was busy as Custer usually was gathering intelligence checking positions. It's forgotten that when most see Reno having a break down and in la la land as the men crawl up and form a loose defense, Reno returns and say's not here it's not good ground go over there and set up {meaning he was studying all the ground not idly standing around}. The ground later proved to be the only defendable ground for miles. I find the ground at Reno Hill very hard to take in and I believe Reno's mind was working hard to find "The" spot. So while Weir is running off Reno is with the Scouts near where the good Dr. met his end watching Tepee's be taken down and then put back up {under Sitting Bull's orders as he just received a runner with the news Custer was no more}. So then he leaves to move towards Custer. So everyone arrives with a view to a kill. Indians are shooting things on the ground so maybe shooting down into Deep Ravine maybe in Volley's (many participants claimed Indians were Volley firing) with their new carbines or just their Mop Up which means shoot each corpse many times ( score an assist and earn 1/2 a feather). The whole of Medicine Tail drainage is full of Indians they turn and head towards Reno's command. Reno doesn't want to return to the stink of death but there is no better ground.
I don't like Reno but I don't see what he did wrong so I end up defending his actions as if I liked him. He was like the 4th crewman on the original Star Track ment to die but inconviently Reno refuses.
Sorry to be redundant when I checked my other posts hadn't appeared and I assumed they were posted after each post I comented on.
|
|
|
Post by dave on Nov 10, 2015 12:16:31 GMT -6
I have received no response from Mr. Bonafede from my e-mail of last week asking for a source for his LBH map, so I sent another one today. Fred I threw your name in the message so may be we will hear from him soon. I have his phone number but do not want to call unless we receive no response. Regards Dave
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Nov 10, 2015 13:21:32 GMT -6
The curious interesting observation is the straight line sequence which indicates quite seriousy, that something or one, didn't know what they were doing. I guess we'll have to blame that arifact collector P.W.Norris who removed bucket loads of cartridges from LSH and also, Joe Blummer! Who was Vaughan's informant and guide. Scott Pitsch analysis. We are looking for a line of retreat indicating three companies abreast, charging to the east from a timbered location, and straight into a river. Reno halted to avoid one ditch and charged headlong into another, full of flowing water! HR
Vaughn has a hand drawn map not a Google map. Here is my issue with his map. He has Reno's troopers exiting the timber from the rear which fits no description then he has Reno moving out onto the valley floor right in front of the Pitsch location. Once Vaughn gets the troops in the right place every indication is the same as the Pitsch location and is correct.
I think you need to find something that states the troops did not ride out of their location and up on the valley floor. They broke through the Indian lines. The Indians state that in their accounts.
Where does Vaughn place the Indians that the troopers encountered as they came out of the timber?
You left out numerous Pitsch dots in your representation. The majority of artifacts are in the Pitsch timber area.
Why?
Regards
AZ Ranger
Varnum is the one that described passing up and through a narrow path and there after that formed my perspective. I thinking the men formed up in the glade and passed out of it through the path but it appears A(?), M formed up out side the glade but in some other opening in the timber drew fire lost 2 men and then went for the bluff ? while most of E was still in the glade? Very unclear on that and too lazy to reread it all. Trying to examine early photo's shows a fan of sediment near where otter creek and or a brushed line between 2cnd and third bench or both continues by or ends at the river bend. At the bend the river cuts into the third bench a cut bank at least ten feet above the river. A position that would comand the fan of sediment where there are Tepees in the W.O.Taylor photo which I believe is the glade. A high quality circa 1916 photo shows the detail W.O. Taylor's doesn't. A pre 1910 photo confirms the 1916 river bend.
|
|
shaw
Full Member
Posts: 187
|
Post by shaw on Nov 10, 2015 14:29:13 GMT -6
I think motivation is very different than whether someone fought hard or not. Yes, it can influence the latter but it is more subliminal. If Tom Custer had been with Reno on the hill (I know, fat chance) he would have headed north with Weir rather than sit there and wait no matter what had just transpired in the valley.
Accepting the premise that everyone fought hard, motivation still comes into play.
Do I think Reno was a coward? No. Do I think he shirked his duty by charging out of the timber. Can someone spray my face with brains and can I see that NA's are working around my flanks? Can I be pinned in against a river with high bluffs on the other bank? Can I feel that no way no how is anyone coming to support me?
Do I think Benteen should have marched north rather than supporting Reno? No! He did the exact right thing. Reno's command was in deep do do.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Nov 10, 2015 15:00:59 GMT -6
Fred I threw your name in the message so may be we will hear from him soon. I have his phone number but do not want to call unless we receive no response. Dave, He wouldn't know me from Adam. Don't kid yourself: I am not well known outside of these tight circles here. A bunch of the LBHA members might know of me because of the awards I have won, but otherwise I doubt 25% of the CBHMA members have never heard the name. Keep us posted, however. And don't be afraid to tell Bonafide his map is superb. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|