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Post by herosrest on Jul 15, 2016 13:11:44 GMT -6
DucemusWith honours. Good read though?
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 15, 2016 14:16:19 GMT -6
Quite a few rifle pits at the Divide!
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Post by herosrest on Jul 15, 2016 14:17:25 GMT -6
Any relics?
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 16, 2016 5:18:34 GMT -6
Not that we could discern, we were encumbered with two others. The pits gave those engaged there a solid perimeter, good fields of fire from higher ground. Steve will probably give you his thoughts either on this board or the one I am banned from.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 16, 2016 6:49:23 GMT -6
That pretty well covers it. It is convincing that it is the 1874 site and that it was along a travel corridor.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Jun 12, 2018 11:36:36 GMT -6
Ducemusmagpie - www.sandybarnardauthor.com/shop/sandy/shovels.htmlIn the Little Big Horn Valley rancher Jason Pitsch had been conducting his own archeological studies on his family's property in and around the Reno skirmish site and the timber site. I interviewed him and photographed many of his artifacts. That led me to decide to expand Digging by adding a chapter on Pitsch's work. S. Barnard lbha.proboards.com/thread/1355/soldier-jason-pitch?page=1This was one of the best topical debates which ever was. thelbha.proboards.com/thread/454/renos-timber-area Maps galore. Now - It has been stated that Reno expected direct support, also that Reno expected that direct support from the rear. This is an unfortunate presentation of wishful thinking. Reno very quickly realised that Custer did, exactly what he did - moving east of the river in a coordinted strike. Further, Reno never once remarked or commented on Benteen's order to reinforce him in the valley. His very silence speaks volumes of truths. Truths which he could not reveal. Where in Cook'e's note does it state "reinforce Reno in the valley." What messenger was sent from Custer to Benteen with that wording whether written or verbally? Please provide proof, not rumor or hearsay. Thank you. Answering this is straight forward. Five companies of 7th Cavalry were led away from the advance by Reno in the valley. Those five companies moved down river, across the river from Reno's battalion and depending upon your flavour of idiocy (Custer's) they were to be employed by crossing the river at or near 'B' which was Maguire's name for what is now (incorrectly) known as Medicine Tail Creek; or, to cross the river into the valley even further down river at Fords C 0r D(various). Why did the five companies move away from Reno's battalion and miles beyond it down river? They did so to fight in the valley. Therefore logic dictates that Custer intended to be in the valley with the five companies. Therefore, what was the point of ordering Benteen to ride along the bluffs waving at Reno in the valley, and go to B, C, or D various fords about which Benteen and Martini knew absolutely nothing. Follow Reno's trail to Ford A or as happened, spot him fighting in the valley and 'Pitch in'. Of course, Benteen elected not to do that, quite rightly according to Terry - whom Benteen mentioned it to. Thus, Terry, besides Benteen, understood that Benteen was ordered to go to the valley quickly and support Reno - who he would see fighting there at the Big Village. That the Yates and Keogh commands were unable to cross the river and fight in the valley and were later attacked on the east bank of the river does not negate or rub out Custer's intention to fight in the valley; when he sent the message to Benteen. Benteen was not intended to bring the pack train and company B with him. That was McDougall's job and as long as Reno and Benteen were in contact with the hostiles - the reaguard and packtrain with the reserve of manpower which it constituted, were safe and would duly arrive. Benteen was a brave and courageous man with immense failings and shortcomings. So, too - Custer who died fighting for something or other. Care to remind us what that was? If you know.
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Post by edavids on Jul 3, 2018 11:52:43 GMT -6
Where in Cook'e's note does it state "reinforce Reno in the valley." What messenger was sent from Custer to Benteen with that wording whether written or verbally? Please provide proof, not rumor or hearsay. Thank you. Answering this is straight forward. Five companies of 7th Cavalry were led away from the advance by Reno in the valley. Those five companies moved down river, across the river from Reno's battalion and depending upon your flavour of idiocy (Custer's) they were to be employed by crossing the river at or near 'B' which was Maguire's name for what is now (incorrectly) known as Medicine Tail Creek; or, to cross the river into the valley even further down river at Fords C 0r D(various). Why did the five companies move away from Reno's battalion and miles beyond it down river? They did so to fight in the valley. Therefore logic dictates that Custer intended to be in the valley with the five companies. Therefore, what was the point of ordering Benteen to ride along the bluffs waving at Reno in the valley, and go to B, C, or D various fords about which Benteen and Martini knew absolutely nothing. Follow Reno's trail to Ford A or as happened, spot him fighting in the valley and 'Pitch in'. Of course, Benteen elected not to do that, quite rightly according to Terry - whom Benteen mentioned it to. Thus, Terry, besides Benteen, understood that Benteen was ordered to go to the valley quickly and support Reno - who he would see fighting there at the Big Village. That the Yates and Keogh commands were unable to cross the river and fight in the valley and were later attacked on the east bank of the river does not negate or rub out Custer's intention to fight in the valley; when he sent the message to Benteen. Benteen was not intended to bring the pack train and company B with him. That was McDougall's job and as long as Reno and Benteen were in contact with the hostiles - the reaguard and packtrain with the reserve of manpower which it constituted, were safe and would duly arrive. Benteen was a brave and courageous man with immense failings and shortcomings. So, too - Custer who died fighting for something or other. Care to remind us what that was? If you know. All I can say is “nice try.” Your explanation above presume that all elements knew where the others were. We know this wasn’t the case. You gave a long winded answer that proves nothing. So again, where in the note does it state “go to Reno in the valley”. And how was Benteen to know that Reno was in the valley in the first place. The mpatiently tapping toes and waiting for a coherent answer or a retraction.
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 3, 2018 14:43:17 GMT -6
In one of Martini's interviews, I think with Camp, he was told to find Benteen, good thing Benteen broke off the scout, don't you think? Martini might have survived with Benteen, I have my doubts about Reno and the pack train.
Good catch David, Benteen was never told where to go and/or to break out the ammunition. Benteen did not subdivide the command and continue to do so, feeding the troops one bite at a time. It was not Benteen or Reno who refused to share any coherent plan.
Regards. Tom
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 4, 2018 14:18:46 GMT -6
Benteen left before Reno was ordered to attack either fleeing Indians or a camp . . . somewhere.
Benteen had no idea about Custer's attack order, let alone Reno/Custer had separated.
He received two messengers before Martini met up with him, which stated to continue forward and keep looking for Indians. When he realized there were no Indians, let alone a village he started back. If he didn't Martini would never have found him and Reno would have met the same fate as Custer.
Why Custer failed to notify Benteen about the Reno attack order is a mystery. By the time Martini was ordered to find Benteen Reno was about to be routed, and Custer's command was doomed.
Benteen's good sense to call off the "wild goose chase" saved Reno but the pro-Custer crowd has ever since blamed Benteen for not going straight to Custer. I guess they didn't care that Reno's command suffered heavy casualties and Reno was in no condition to lead.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 5, 2018 17:43:12 GMT -6
Answering this is straight forward. Five companies of 7th Cavalry were led away from the advance by Reno in the valley. Those five companies moved down river, across the river from Reno's battalion and depending upon your flavour of idiocy (Custer's) they were to be employed by crossing the river at or near 'B' which was Maguire's name for what is now (incorrectly) known as Medicine Tail Creek; or, to cross the river into the valley even further down river at Fords C 0r D(various). Why did the five companies move away from Reno's battalion and miles beyond it down river? They did so to fight in the valley. Therefore logic dictates that Custer intended to be in the valley with the five companies. Therefore, what was the point of ordering Benteen to ride along the bluffs waving at Reno in the valley, and go to B, C, or D various fords about which Benteen and Martini knew absolutely nothing. Follow Reno's trail to Ford A or as happened, spot him fighting in the valley and 'Pitch in'. Of course, Benteen elected not to do that, quite rightly according to Terry - whom Benteen mentioned it to. Thus, Terry, besides Benteen, understood that Benteen was ordered to go to the valley quickly and support Reno - who he would see fighting there at the Big Village. That the Yates and Keogh commands were unable to cross the river and fight in the valley and were later attacked on the east bank of the river does not negate or rub out Custer's intention to fight in the valley; when he sent the message to Benteen. Benteen was not intended to bring the pack train and company B with him. That was McDougall's job and as long as Reno and Benteen were in contact with the hostiles - the reaguard and packtrain with the reserve of manpower which it constituted, were safe and would duly arrive. Benteen was a brave and courageous man with immense failings and shortcomings. So, too - Custer who died fighting for something or other. Care to remind us what that was? If you know. All I can say is “nice try.” Your explanation above presume that all elements knew where the others were. We know this wasn’t the case. You gave a long winded answer that proves nothing. So again, where in the note does it state “go to Reno in the valley”. And how was Benteen to know that Reno was in the valley in the first place. The mpatiently tapping toes and waiting for a coherent answer or a retraction. It seems that we are are at opposite ends of the bookshelf on this so there's little point to it. All that is relevant to the order is what Custer intended to happen - when he sent the message. The situation changed afterwards. Benteen completely understood Custer's ordered intent and advised Terry of it and why he did not obey the order to go to Reno's support quickly. Reno was at the Big Village. Custer was not.
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 8, 2018 15:26:48 GMT -6
HR, You have to say what you intend to happen, GAC did not. How did Benteen know where Reno was, was it in the note? Did Martini tell him? Be quick, to where? Bring "paks", all of them, to where? To whom? Was this a cluster puck or a Custer puck?
Regards, Tom
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Post by noggy on Jul 9, 2018 0:27:55 GMT -6
HR, You have to say what you intend to happen, GAC did not. How did Benteen know where Reno was, was it in the note? Did Martini tell him? Be quick, to where? Bring "paks", all of them, to where? To whom? Was this a cluster puck or a Custer puck?
Regards, Tom I still seems so weird that not a simple line like "East of the river" or something like it was not added. All the best, Noggy
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 9, 2018 5:03:19 GMT -6
To be fair it was scouts that beckoned Benteen to Reno Hill after there was a look see into the Valley.
Regards, Tom
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 9, 2018 5:13:17 GMT -6
Of possible interest. I have known of the Curtis interviews and the President telling him print it for years. It may have appeared on the board in the past but thought I would throw it in here as well.
Since many feel that Reno is the scapegoat. It is common knowledge that President Roosevelt persuaded Curtis not to reduce this to print. Camp interviewed the same scouts, who had and agenda, who asked the right questions. who got the right answers? Thanks to Lee and Michele Noyes for the following.
The July issue of True West magazine features Editor Meghan Saar’s informative essay on photographer Edward S. Curtis and the excellent array of his images that reflect his tireless efforts to capture the essence of traditional Native American culture before it vanished. The sample is among the thousands of such photographs taken by this “shadow catcher.”
Curtis was among those intrigued by the mystery of the 1876 Battle of the Little Big Horn. In 1907, he persuaded three of the U.S. Army’s Crow scouts to guide him on the battlefield so as to follow the route of the five 7th Cavalry companies decimated with Lieutenant Colonel George Armstrong Custer. What the battle survivors Goes Ahead, Hairy Moccasin and White Man Runs Him told the photographer varied significantly from military interpretations of Custer’s Last Fight.
One widely held belief was (and is) that Major Marcus Reno’s retreat from the Little Big Horn valley was a principal cause of the battle’s outcome because it enabled warriors to concentrate in force against Custer’s immediate command. However, the scouts informed Curtis that Custer had witnessed Reno’s entire fight from the two peaks known as Weir Point, including the major’s chaotic retreat. White Man Runs Him claimed that Custer dismissed the scouts’ admonishment to assist Reno by telling them there was “plenty of time.” The five companies then proceeded north to their doom. Before Custer engaged the Indians the guide “Mitch” Boyer released the three scouts, who temporarily joined Reno’s battered command.
Based on what the scouts had told him, Curtis concluded that the real victim at the Little Big Horn was Reno, not Custer, and that an investigation of the battle was thus warranted. He also shared this story with several military scholars and his friend Theodore Roosevelt. Not believing the allegation, however, the President persuaded the photographer not to publish or otherwise pursue the matter.
Smithsonian Institution archivist James S. Hutchins compiled and edited the Curtis manuscript and related correspondence on this subject, which Upton & Sons published as The Papers of Edward S. Curtis Relating to Custer’s Last Battle (2000). This book features several of Curtis’ images, including those of the three Crow scouts during the photographer’s 1907 visit to the Little Big Horn. It includes a fine interpretive (then and now) essay of these images by Dr. James S. Brust.
Please go to truewestmagazine.com/shadow-catcher-edward-curtis/ to read the True West article.
As a follow up to Curtis(same source)
White Man Runs Him told General Hugh Scott in 1919 that some of Reno’s men joined Custer. He also stated, for example, that “Custer moved slowly and took his time and stopped occasionally. . . . Reno was fighting long before Custer moved.” An edited, condensed version by Colonel Tim McCoy of this on-the-scene account is in Graham, The Custer Myth, pp. 20-24. White Man Runs Him told Walter M. Camp that “Custer sat on [the] bluff and saw all of Reno’s valley fight.” (See Hammer, Custer in ’76, p. 178, italics added.) Camp’s other Crow scout interviews appear to support this statement in part, if not the entire
Regards, Tom
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Post by herosrest on Aug 4, 2019 2:18:50 GMT -6
I will point out that there are considerable difficulties both directly through interpretations, and by study, with what the Crow Souts told Curtis that they did. We can agree that they told Curtis what they did but what they told has fallen to the realm of speculation and its suppositions. Some of the thinking is based upon photo analysis. Some is based upon opinion of experts Curtis involved in several years research he undertook during visits, and much of it is then wishful thinking in working with the texts and research and publications. Curtis marked where the Crow's went to with Custer and where they left him. A picture is worth a thousand words - sometimes. So, with Curtis going to the trouble to publish the 1891 US Geo map with his own comments on what he was told by the scouts - why would anyone doubt that they left Custer at Greasy Grass Hill, west of the mouth of Medicine Tail and Deep Coulee. Curtis's map indicates that the scouts left Custer from Greasy Grass Hill. The image of the Crows in the valley is simply there for being there. Taken by Curtis during one of his visits.
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