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Post by montrose on Sept 17, 2015 20:13:34 GMT -6
Fred has a new article in the LBH journal. It matches his book, and a few dozen (Maybe hundreds) posts on the various boards.
I have areas of disagreement, which I will post here.
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Post by fred on Sept 18, 2015 6:21:51 GMT -6
Fred has a new article in the LBH journal. It matches his book, and a few dozen (Maybe hundreds) posts on the various boards. I have areas of disagreement, which I will post here. It should be fun. If I am not mistaken, the Research Review is at the printer, so it should be in the mail soon. Quite frankly, I think this article may be the best I have ever done, so it will be interesting. The article deals with the Keogh position, his choices, the number of troops, the terrain, markers, and tactics. It should be fun. Two old warriors... Best wishes, Fred. |
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Post by montrose on Sept 18, 2015 7:04:32 GMT -6
The article is titled "Perception versus Intention" in the September Newsletter. It deals with the decision to launch a regimental attack in the valley, and the subsequent decision by LTC Custer to cancel this attack and move downstream.
I agree with Fred that sending regimental HQ assets forward clearly show this was the regiments main effort. The scout detachment, LT Varnum, LT Hare, LT Wallace, CPT Cooke, and CPT Keogh all went with MAJ Reno.
LTC Custer retained the Indians on loan from COL Gibbon. These Crows were familiar with the area and had been in the LBH valley as recently as May.
I find it interesting that you believe Custer turned to the right at Middle Knoll, 670 yards from the river. This means the main body did follow the advance guard from 1.3 miles from the lone tepee.
So what triggered a new plan at Middle Knoll?
I do not think it was Indians running away. I believe that LTC Custer thought the village was very close to Ford A. His estimate at lone tepee was the enemy was two miles ahead, or just over Ford A, since lone tepee is 1.7 miles from the river. So his second estimated location of the village was wrong.
The trigger seems to be the return of Cooke and Keogh and Reno's first messenger. I believe GAC had turned before Reno's second messenger arrived. Varnum and Hare were already in the valley, reporting to Reno. So whatever triggered GAC, it was not a scouting report.
So what did GAC know. The village was not at Ford A. It was downstream 2-5 miles. No one had seen the village, but dust from the pony herds being driven in was visible. The decision to move right seems rash and poorly thought out.
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Post by fred on Sept 18, 2015 7:16:28 GMT -6
Sorry, Will; I thought you meant the upcoming Research Review article which we have discussed on the phone.
The impetus for Custer's turn to the right was Gerard's information that the Indians had turned and were coming back up the valley, thereby setting a screen to provide time for the village to run. Nothing more than that.
Best wishes,
Fred.
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Post by magpie on Sept 18, 2015 8:01:11 GMT -6
I am sorry but if you've ever topped a hill approaching a wood burning town it's not hard to see where the homes are. How the summer heat would influence the use of fires I don't know (cooking and bug control verses heat). I'm thinking at 3-5 miles all the Indian scouts knew exactly where the population was but perhaps it wasn't communicated. There were fires set on the bottoms but grass fire smoke is a different color and characteristic than wood smoke not sure on buffalo chips . I am thinking the Crow's knew exactly the natural defenses of the position. How well they communicated it and how well Custer perceived it is another matter.
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Post by dave on Sept 18, 2015 8:52:20 GMT -6
Fred
Received my copy of the article in the Little Big Horn Associates newsletter after returning from vacation. I have read it a couple of times and see where keogh gets his idea of a flank attack though I disagree with that concept.
Custer turns north and goes around the middle knoll and into lore and legend.
Very well written article and well researched, seems like you have that reputation, leaving me wanting to know more even though I know the outcome.
Regards
Dave
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Post by jodak on Sept 18, 2015 9:34:14 GMT -6
I am sorry but if you've ever topped a hill approaching a wood burning town it's not hard to see where the homes are. How the summer heat would influence the use of fires I don't know (cooking and bug control verses heat). I'm thinking at 3-5 miles all the Indian scouts knew exactly where the population was but perhaps it wasn't communicated. There were fires set on the bottoms but grass fire smoke is a different color and characteristic than wood smoke not sure on buffalo chips . I am thinking the Crow's knew exactly the natural defenses of the position. How well they communicated it and how well Custer perceived it is another matter. The way that the scouts first recognized the location of the village from the Crow's Nest was by the smoke from the breakfast fires. They were aghast when the troopers also lit breakfast fires, thinking that, if they could see the village's smoke, the village could also see the troopers'. However, it seems to me that that concern may have been misguided, as the scouts were in an intermediate location, much closer to the village than the village was to the troops.
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Post by magpie on Sept 18, 2015 10:06:59 GMT -6
people are mostly unaware of how far you can see in the once pristine Rockies. When I was young we could see the Pumpkin Buttes clearly every day 20 miles away and I suspect if you put 650 animals on them we might notice a color or shimmer of change. We could usually see the Big Horns 80 miles away and on a rare day we could see Laramie Peak 80 miles to our South. At night we could see the glow of the tiny towns of Edgerton and Midwest at 20 miles, Casper at 40 miles and Denver/Cheyenne at 150 miles. I believe it is an absolute fallacy that the Indians didn't know what was happening on both side of the line. The only difference is it was the biggest Indian Village anyone could recollect. At that size, the glow of it from campfires would have been visible all night.
PS: edited to improve accuracy
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Post by Beth on Sept 18, 2015 17:30:25 GMT -6
I was really surprised when we lived in Idaho at how much you see and how clearly you could see it on any given day--it really depended all on the weather. It is one of the reasons I have always wondered if LBH valley was under an inversion which would keep dust and smoke low to the ground and make for a general haze during the day.
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Post by magpie on Sept 20, 2015 19:31:24 GMT -6
Hard to figure on the weather but I can see it now, some weatherman reconstructing the weather pattern that day and writing another LBH book!
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