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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 17, 2015 9:10:25 GMT -6
Welcome Magpie
When you are looking at the terrain from Google earth Pro what height above ground is the view taken from? As far as McGuire's map I am not sure it reflects the actual vegetation and is just and indicator of riparian vegetation along the river. There are 8 McGuire maps and even the tipi's are moving locations. Several witnesses did not believe the map reflected what they recalled. I believe it was map number 6 they were looking at.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by magpie on Sept 17, 2015 9:24:35 GMT -6
Yes, I kind of think what happened with this "ditch" is it was a buffalo trail and that the big drainage ravine that runs to the village occasionally would have an ice dam or beaver dam and would fill up and start to drain across this trail or cut that you call otter creek.
On Martini I guess I'll try to put all his counts together and figure out what's bothering everyone.
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Post by magpie on Sept 17, 2015 9:48:41 GMT -6
Hi Ranger: I don't have Google Earth pro just the freeby. I am framing from ford B to Ford A on focusing on that big patch of pale, poor soil to the south west of the ridge and the ridge itself, and lining that up with Maquires first. The others he's got trees everywhere. It seems I remember C was Terry's camp so I kind of think Maquire would be kind of accurate close to camp. So if you use that the skirmish area as Fred from his tactical knowledge describes verses a line.
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Post by fred on Sept 17, 2015 10:34:46 GMT -6
Yes, I kind of think what happened with this "ditch" is it was a buffalo trail and that the big drainage ravine that runs to the village occasionally would have an ice dam or beaver dam and would fill up and start to drain across this trail or cut that you call otter creek. Very good point. By the way, the ravine is still there today and I have posted pictures of it here. There is also a picture of it in Strategy.Martini is-- obviously-- one of my so-called "Profiles." If you wish, I can post it here. It provides a synopsis of everything he ever said about the battle, including the sources. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by magpie on Sept 17, 2015 11:19:35 GMT -6
Thanks and I still have to read your book. So if Martini is profiled there great. I have of recent only read/ or reread his final account from Graham and his RCOI. I have often been mystified by people discounting long term memory as many of my family members easily recall to 50 years and beyond with surprising accuracy even on things that were not thought about over the decades. I do agree with you when people lie they do tend to make themselves more important and central and is why I was suspicious of Girard and that people tend to forget he was in a gun fight with Reno at the RCOI. Girard I think kept everything believable but as damaging to Reno as possible while Benteen did the opposite. If your focusing on Martni's description of Indians hiding under buffalo robes and shaking them and shooting at him as he left Custer to my mind Benteen's discovery of Martini's horse's wound is proof enough and so the story doesn't sound like a self serving embelishment. There is also an Indian narrative that claims one chief told young warriors to take out a list of high value targets and Trumpeters where right up there.
Thank's for your input Fred.
I guess to return to DeRudio and his Guidon and Weiberts discovery of one but unfortunately Henry Weibert didn't locate it on his arial view map nor the 1925 discovery of a soldiers body so at least I can't locate but perhaps when I get your book you'll have it located for me.
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Post by fred on Sept 17, 2015 14:32:14 GMT -6
Thanks and I still have to read your book. So if Martini is profiled there great. I do not "profile" Martini in the book. The "profiles" I put together were used to write the book. The Martini profile is a separate Word document about 12 pages long and it is a synopsis of what he said and testified to over the years. Also, I do not discount accounts told 40, 50 years later. I look at them a little more closely, but I do not arbitrarily shunt them aside simply because they may be 40 years after the fact. Some of the best stuff in the book falls in that category. What I do have an issue with, however, is when I have someone like Martini who gives sworn evidence 2 1/2 years after the fact, then tells a whole different story 34 years later and again, 44 years later. That is where I have the problem. It is especially suspicious to me when every time the tale is told, the teller-- Martini, in this case-- seems to get closer and closer to the action, closer and closer to being side-by-side with Custer. To me, that begins to fall into the "crock" category. De Rudio is another of those whose commentary needs to be taken with a grain of salt and placed into the proper context... very, very closely. As best I can figure, De Rudio was on the south side of Reno's timber line. That is the only place he could be where he would have spotted Custer on the bluffs; it is where A Company was located, therefore the guidon would have been there; and that's where the greatest Indian threat was. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by magpie on Sept 17, 2015 17:42:21 GMT -6
If your still willing to post the profile here or maybe under a tread with his name that would be great, save me and perhaps many others ( in a tread under Martini they would find it easier) the research. Graham mentioned/claimed one of Martini's boys became a general, if true I'd expect Martini to be very capable. I am also estimating the fact this immigrant of 2 years is made a bugler and orderly that he must have impressed someone. As far as proximity to Custer I don't know the protocol as to where he should be as trumpeter, as messenger, as orderly. I must admit that I've read many things with a common thread bias. My thinking there is that would be the closest to the truth and you could always pull it apart later. So many words used lack clarity. Like you have said timing critical but what to make zero hour, that every thing pivots on is also another. Is the hill 3411 is that elevation for the high point near Weir Point or another ? Best Wishes, Tom.
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Post by jodak on Sept 17, 2015 19:57:29 GMT -6
Martin had some experience as a musician in Italy prior to immigrating to the U.S., and his former occupation is listed as such in his enlistment documents. It therefore makes sense for him to be utilized as a trumpeter. His company commander, Benteen, indicated that he did not think much of his abilities as a soldier, but he may have been OK as a trumpeter/orderly. Also, Benteen did not think particularly highly of many people, so his criticism should possibly be taken with a grain of salt. You sometimes see people postulate that Martin was serving as Custer's orderly on the 26th because Benteen assigned him there to get rid of him, but in one account Martin said that it was chief trumpeter Voss who had made the assignment, while in another account he says it was Benteen. It would seem likely that it was a combination of the two, with Voss going through channels to Benteen who then issued the actual order. That might explain why Martin recounted it one way at one time and another way at another. It may also have just been Martin's turn in the normal duty rotation to serve with regimental HQ that day. Martin had had a falling out with Voss a few days previously when Voss had given him a similar assignment out of order, and Martin had protested to Custer who promised to look into it. One thing that I have never seen in any statements or writings by Benteen or anyone else is any indication that Martin had a less than satisfactory ability to communicate in English, and his effectiveness as a messenger therefore compromised, but you will see that stated frequently by some posters here - where they get their insight, I do not know.
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Post by magpie on Sept 18, 2015 7:33:17 GMT -6
Thanks Jodak: I recently read but the exact Indian citation escapes me that a Chief gave the (some) warriors a target list and I believe Trumpeter was number two. Expanding on that Chiefs assessment of the importance of Trumpeters I think in the ideal army one would be very careful about choosing Trumpeters who must accurately perceive a command and blow their horn under the fog of battle. It is unfortunate that the best soldiers are often rewarded by not being advanced and given difficult, critical and often suicidal assignments. I am being lazy here by not checking my recollection but Graham (53) said, I think,that Martini's son became a general. As the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree I think that has a lot to do with him being chosen despite his flaws, incomplete command of English, not a good soldier (perhaps he couldn't hit the side of the barn),etc. I worked with a fresh off the boat person who's brother was a Dr. and he could perceive what needed to be done, what tools where necessary and pass them to you almost as fast as you could perceive the need. Their was occasional translation disasters but the raw intelligence of this individual made up for all. Within 2 years he learned English, within 5 he taught himself to read english even though he unlike his studious brother he didn't even finish grade school. His children are going to College.
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Post by jodak on Sept 18, 2015 7:46:09 GMT -6
Thanks Jodak: I recently read but the exact Indian citation escapes me that a Chief gave the (some) warriors a target list and I believe Trumpeter was number two. Not unlike later times when the radioman became a priority target
Sept 18, 2015 8:33:17 GMT -5 magpie said: I am being lazy here by not checking my recollection but Graham (53) said, I think,that Martini's son became a general.
I'm not aware of a son becoming a general and not sure that he even had a son. I know that he had 2 or 3 daughters, but he could have had a son as well.
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Post by magpie on Sept 18, 2015 9:57:06 GMT -6
Graham (53) page 288 say's: "Martin has given two stalwart sons to the American Army". I am not sure where I got the general bit but Graham has a lot of pages. I don't think I would make it up from whole cloth but I am fallible and there is so much stuff out their, none without the actually documentation that mind pollution is a possibility. I hope I am not contributing to the latter.
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Post by jodak on Sept 18, 2015 12:19:15 GMT -6
According to this, Martin had had four daughters and four sons, three of which became soldiers and one, George, supposedly named after Custer, a general. However, the author references Graham elsewhere in the article, and it is not evident whether he is validating or only quoting Graham here as well. Also, I have not been able to find any reference to a General George Martin, but I didn't look real hard. When I have time I will look at the Army registers from the early 1900s to see if he appears there.
The article also includes a number of obvious errors, as well as a good deal of poetic license (ex., "The General raised his hand, signaling the battalion to halt. Leaning forward in his saddle, he intently studied the valley below." Really? How does the author know that?), so I'm not sure that anything is says can really be accepted as gospel. Even so, it contains a lot of information, particularly as to Martin's background, that you might find interesting.
www.littlebighorn.info/Articles/Martino.pdf
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Post by fred on Sept 18, 2015 18:33:46 GMT -6
Jodak,
Who wrote that article? Or am I, as usual, late?
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 18, 2015 19:11:10 GMT -6
If you at the drainage across the freeway you will see where the original came from if I recall correctly. I think I was riding on a tractor spraying noxious weeds and could see where it lined up.
There is certainly potential for agriculture practices along with highway building to modify the old runoff channel.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 18, 2015 19:18:30 GMT -6
Jodak, Who wrote that article? Or am I, as usual, late? Best wishes, Fred. Fred I think our lovely moderator should know since it is posted on her articles page. Steve PS Trumpeter John Martin (Giovanni Martino)" by Leonardo Solimine
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