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Post by fred on May 17, 2015 5:37:17 GMT -6
Fred have you read Luther's biography? Actually, Tom, I didn't even know there was one. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 17, 2015 5:41:41 GMT -6
According to the book “Where Custer Fell” the author(s) said that all (or at least three or four) of the NCOs from E Company were found in this ravine, so they must have known it was E Troop.
So there were around nine E Company men with the pack train, so wouldn’t these nine troopers make an effort to search this area to seek the bodies of their friends? I know I would try my best to find any of my mates that were dead in that ravine, and if these NCOs were found and a total number gathered, then it looks like someone did make an effort to get down in the weeds and have a proper kick about, and maybe get a few out.
I think that these men were separated from the HQ/F group by Indians cutting behind them, if they were in skirmish order and facing west, then any attack from the north or north east would hit them from behind of right flank, thus slicing them off from their support and probably killing the company’s horse holders, so they fled to the nearest cover.
On a side note, if they were engaging large amounts of warriors coming from the river, then the ones that cut them off must have been in large numbers too, otherwise why run towards ravines full of Indians when you could try and break through to your friends on the hill behind.
Whops sorry Fred you got in before me.
Ian.
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Post by fred on May 17, 2015 6:00:32 GMT -6
Ian,
I liked the Gently series, but it does not play here any more. Lisa and I like Midsomer best, but also love Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries, Father Brown, and DCI Banks. Not big on Vera, but those others are top-notch. I don't know why, but I like them much better than American-made stuff. I find the acting so much much better and much less contrived. Much more realistic, to me; no token bathing beauties (except for the lovely Essie Davis), no political correctness... and I really like DI Morton in the Banks series. Cool gal!!
Best wishes, Fred.
PS-- Now get off this thread with this nonsense!!! < G >
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Post by fred on May 17, 2015 6:06:02 GMT -6
Ian,
The problem was that the units moved as units; it was not a shelter-skelter, every man check the bodies-type thing. Plus, much of the burying effort was done on the 28th, three days-worth of baking in the sun. They also got the infantry units involved. Bodies were unrecognizable for the most part... remember, TWC was ID'ed only by his tattoos. As men tried to hoist bodies out of the ravine, the bodies were coming apart, so they stopped and simply threw dirt on them. That tells me some bodies were brought out and some were left in the ravine. That further distorts the marker placements and I am unsure if any of the subsequent burial details ever bothered taking that into consideration.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 17, 2015 6:18:15 GMT -6
Exactly Fred, I think that some would have been removed, but 28 bodies would take some shifting in all, so given the body state of some of the corpses most would have been left in situ, but it looks like these were left unmarked and the Sweet expedition didn't go down there (or did they?).
One day I hope to visit the battlefield, and one of the areas that does intrigue me is deep ravine, now on photos in doesn't look that big of a deal but it looked like the warriors used it in great numbers, and if it was the place were all these bodies were found then it surly made an impact on the battle.
Ian.
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Post by fred on May 17, 2015 7:23:41 GMT -6
This should give you a good idea of what these men were dealing with... This last picture is of the bend in the ravine and probably where the 1876 head-cut was. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by tubman13 on May 17, 2015 7:45:21 GMT -6
Last pix seems to show, almost silting(not proper term)build up from bottom to top. We have ravines and trench features on the farm. Same thing can be seen along the North Anna BF. My guess their backs got turned due to attack from behind after trying cut off NA infiltration from the ravine and they were swarmed from both sides.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 17, 2015 8:27:38 GMT -6
My guess is that things were done by the book and they were stood in line facing their front with the horses + holders to the rear. now these men would have been engaging targets adjacent to their front, we have not mentioned the so called "suicide boys" yet and these may have been the ones that swiped out the group holding the horses.
You can imagine the panic these men felt, with enemy front and rear and seeing their horses stampeded. they probably broke formation and started to group, and once one group starts running the others would soon follow, maybe their horses ran down to the ravine and they chased after them in a vain attempt to re-mount.
Another theory is that they were hit as they dismounted, this would be the time when they would have been most vulnerable as they would be disorganized and not in formation aka C company, but that is for another thread.
Ian.
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Post by Beth on May 17, 2015 11:42:36 GMT -6
According to the book “Where Custer Fell” the author(s) said that all (or at least three or four) of the NCOs from E Company were found in this ravine, so they must have known it was E Troop. So there were around nine E Company men with the pack train, so wouldn’t these nine troopers make an effort to search this area to seek the bodies of their friends? I know I would try my best to find any of my mates that were dead in that ravine, and if these NCOs were found and a total number gathered, then it looks like someone did make an effort to get down in the weeds and have a proper kick about, and maybe get a few out. I think that these men were separated from the HQ/F group by Indians cutting behind them, if they were in skirmish order and facing west, then any attack from the north or north east would hit them from behind of right flank, thus slicing them off from their support and probably killing the company’s horse holders, so they fled to the nearest cover. On a side note, if they were engaging large amounts of warriors coming from the river, then the ones that cut them off must have been in large numbers too, otherwise why run towards ravines full of Indians when you could try and break through to your friends on the hill behind. Whops sorry Fred you got in before me. Ian. Didn't they divide the area up when they were searching for bodies with each unit having one area? It's my understanding that they did try to remove the bodies but it was just too overwhelming. I don't think my mind wants to wander to think about what it must have been like.
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Post by chris on May 17, 2015 12:11:22 GMT -6
Beth,I read the same about the initial burials (if one may call them that). It must have been gruesome haste. Fred, Didn't the archaeologists use an auger to test multiple areas in DR? Guessing that method was far too shallow and the wrong area? Best, c.
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Post by Beth on May 17, 2015 16:55:44 GMT -6
Beth,I read the same about the initial burials (if one may call them that). It must have been gruesome haste. Fred, Didn't the archaeologists use an auger to test multiple areas in DR? Guessing that method was far too shallow and the wrong area? Best, c. Or the artifacts are spread too thin to find. I personally believe that it's unlikely much could be found today.
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Post by Dark Cloud on May 17, 2015 17:21:28 GMT -6
Doubt there's much anywhere to find.
What resides at West Point bore zero similarity to the description of Custer's burial garb, and in any case only a skull and some rib bones made the trip. He got the best initial burial, although they couldn't exactly ID it the next year because of ......things.
How protected were most corpses? Saran wrap with a Manager's Special discount sign in Nature's Way Deli was the protection. These were notionally covered bodies in the hot sun with a shovel load of dust atop and in aggregate must have drawn every carnivore within 20 miles. That atop insects and everything else that rots a corpse. It's not like they lasted years to be buried as the head of the coulee wandered east and north. Coyotes could be mistaken for Sumo dogs by autumn, waddling about.
Remember the soldiers who had to draw swords and kill the lizards that woke and bothered them the next year in great numbers? Any similar stories from other years? If so, never ran across one, myself, but the immediate effect of all that food must have affected the eating patterns of the smaller inhabitants. When that vanished soon enough, the lizard population dropped as well, as things that fed on the lizards had better options for a bit. Maybe. No way to know. But a lot of horse and soldier about. Still, every once in a while a more complete skeleton appears, but in aggregate, I'd doubt much point to a search. Even if found, they'd have been washed downstream in part or appeared in wolf or coyote scat. And what would it prove? Where they fell, where they died, where they were dragged, where a half thought out plan to bury a large number of disgusting bodies was interrupted by reality?
My impression is they could not exit fast enough in 1876 or 7, that it was revolting, and the crappy job the Army did for years after - 'this time we fixed it all up!' - becomes grotesque. No money, no time, no real interest, hurry up nature and make this go away. And one wonders if the one grave dug relatively deep for Custer and TWC would have attracted visiting Indian attention, because they'd know soon enough it was Custer they'd killed. And what the Army buried in 76 is not what they buried at West Point if the written descriptions are correct. I'd bet if they DNA'd the bones under the monument that a discomforting number are Custer family items.
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rebcav
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by rebcav on May 17, 2015 18:05:22 GMT -6
Okay... mull this over, then let's debate the number. Who would you pick to be the most definitive? There were numerous accounts of bodies seen in a deep gully/ravine (Deep Ravine): • 1SG Ryan (M): 18 or 20 men of E Company. He said 28 bodies at a later date. • CPT Benteen (H): 22 bodies. • CPT Moylan (A): 20-odd bodies of E Company. • LT Godfrey (K): 28 men of Smith’s troop. • LT Hare (K): 28 bodies of Smith’s troop in a coulee in skirmish order. • SGT Kanipe (C): rode along the edge of a deep gully and counted 28 bodies in the ravine [Camp]. • LT Richard Thompson (6th Infantry): maybe 34 bodies in a gully [Camp]. • LT Edward Maguire (Engineers): drew a map showing 28 bodies in one particular ravine. • LT Edward McClernand (2nd Cavalry): 28 bodies of Smith’s troop were found at the lower end of the line in a deep coulee. • COL John Gibbon (7th Infantry): 40 or 50 bodies were found in a valley running perpendicular to the river. • LT/Dr. Holmes Paulding: 28 bodies found in a deep ravine by the scouts. • Lone Man (Oglala): 28 • Walter Camp interviewed two Sioux warriors, Good Voiced Elk (Hunkpapa), who claimed 25 to 30 died in a gully; and He Dog (Oglala) who corroborated the number of 28. Of course, one would like to know how he arrived at this precise figure. Best wishes, Fred. Just off the top of my head ( and other than recognizing most of the names; I could give no real accurate or credible assessment into character other than what's been written as I did not personally know any of these men) I'd go with these guys 1) 1stSg Ryan. He's a 1st Sgt 1st Sgts answer to The Colonel and The Colonel answers to God. Learned that in The Corps. 'Nuff said. 2) Lt. Hare. I read a book about him later on in his career during the the Philippine Insurrection called "The Last Causeway." His actions there raised my esteem of him immensely. He truly was a "fightin' son of a gun from Texas." For some reason I find him believable. Or maybe I'm just being naïve. 3) Lt. Maguire. Engineers are compulsive sketchers. And way detail oriented. So I trust him. 4) Lone Man. He was there. No visible agenda. Anyway, that's what I got. Gonna head out to MY watering hole (which one might call a "morass") have a couple coldies, listen to some music and toast surving another weekend here on the Island of Misfit Toys. Hope everyone is doing well....... Aloha, Duane
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Post by fred on May 17, 2015 18:19:25 GMT -6
1) 1stSg Ryan. He's a 1st Sgt. 1st.Sgts answer to The Colonel and The Colonel answers to God. Learned that in The Corps. 'Nuff said. 2) Lt. Hare. I read a book about him later on in his career during the the Philippine Insurrection called "The Last Causeway." His actions there raised my esteem of him immensely. He truly was a "fightin' son of a gun from Texas." For some reason I find him believable. Or maybe I'm just being naïve. 3) Lt. Maguire. Engineers are compulsive sketchers. And way detail oriented. So I trust him. 4) Lone Man. He was there. No visible agenda. Anyway, that's what I got. Gonna head out to MY watering hole (which one might call a "morass") have a couple coldies, listen to some music and toast surving another weekend here on the Island of Misfit Toys. Hope everyone is doing well....... Nicely done, Duane. Good point about Ryan; I hadn't really thought of that and your reasoning. We agree certainly with Maguire. The only issue I have with Indian accounts is their ability to translate numbers, so I would question those accounts, figuring they picked up the number by hearsay. I also tend to agree with you-- and several others-- regarding Luke Hare. Personally, with one or two exceptions, I treat Hare's comments and accounts higher than almost anyone else's for this whole event. My only real issue with Hare was that I wish he had told more and had been more forthcoming. Nicely done. Best wishes, Fred.
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rebcav
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by rebcav on May 17, 2015 18:22:07 GMT -6
1) 1stSg Ryan. He's a 1st Sgt. 1st.Sgts answer to The Colonel and The Colonel answers to God. Learned that in The Corps. 'Nuff said. 2) Lt. Hare. I read a book about him later on in his career during the the Philippine Insurrection called "The Last Causeway." His actions there raised my esteem of him immensely. He truly was a "fightin' son of a gun from Texas." For some reason I find him believable. Or maybe I'm just being naïve. 3) Lt. Maguire. Engineers are compulsive sketchers. And way detail oriented. So I trust him. 4) Lone Man. He was there. No visible agenda. Anyway, that's what I got. Gonna head out to MY watering hole (which one might call a "morass") have a couple coldies, listen to some music and toast surving another weekend here on the Island of Misfit Toys. Hope everyone is doing well....... Nicely done, Duane. Good point about Ryan; I hadn't really thought of that and your reasoning. We agree certainly with Maguire. The only issue I have with Indian accounts is their ability to translate numbers, so I would question those accounts, figuring they picked up the number by hearsay. I also tend to agree with you-- and several others-- regarding Luke Hare. Personally, with one or two exceptions, I treat Hare's comments and accounts higher than almost anyone else's for this whole event. My only real issue with Hare was that I wish he had told more and had been more forthcoming. Nicely done. Best wishes, Fred. Thank You sir.....
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