|
Post by tubman13 on May 16, 2015 6:58:16 GMT -6
Did the NA's light a fire in the timber that Reno occupied? Were there any NA's on the east bank of the river firing from Reno's back? Were the NA's to Reno's south, while in timber a bigger issue, than the ones to his front or infiltration of timber?
What smoke did the Montana column see on the 25th and what time did they see it?
These questions came up on some recent PM's
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Sept 18, 2015 7:48:45 GMT -6
Girard and or Herendeen said fires were already set in wooded river bed on the "charge" from Ford A, then after the break out from enciclement charge/retreat fires were set in the Timber probably to flush the soldiers.
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Oct 12, 2015 11:32:06 GMT -6
I also ran across in either Taylor or Windolph that the Indians tried to set fires on top of Reno's hill but the grass wouldn't sustain the fire and made just enough smoke to be helpfull to the defenders.
|
|
|
Post by wild on Oct 12, 2015 13:25:59 GMT -6
Can't imaging why they could not start a fire ,did I see a post from Fred stating that the temp was 100 degrees. And did the battlefield not burn of it's own volition some years back?
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Oct 12, 2015 14:17:46 GMT -6
Fire needs three components, fuel, oxygen and heat. We know they had oxygen but we don't know about the other two. 100 degree weather isn't enough, believe me otherwise my drought dry lawn would have flamed up ages ago. On the other hand, last week when hubby had an ember escape from the fire pit it quickly torched a section of the lawn so we know our lawn is in a flammable state. (Luckily he had a hose at hand and for the record no more firepit for awhile)
If the grass and brush in the valley wasn't dry, it would be extremely difficult to get it to ignite so I suspect that if they weren't able to set more than smoldering fires, it was because the fuel source was too green.
THe 1983 fire was believed to be started by a cigarette--not spontaneous. I actually have seen a spontaneous fire caused by heat but it involved hay bales that were allowed to reach an internal combustible temp. Burned an entire barn down in a matter of minutes because there was so much fuel to feed it.
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Oct 12, 2015 14:29:22 GMT -6
Fire needs three components, fuel, oxygen and heat. We know they had oxygen but we don't know about the other two. 100 degree weather isn't enough, believe me otherwise my drought dry lawn would have flamed up ages ago. On the other hand, last week when hubby had an ember escape from the fire pit it quickly torched a section of the lawn so we know our lawn is in a flammable state. (Luckily he had a hose at hand and for the record no more firepit for awhile) If the grass and brush in the valley wasn't dry, it would be extremely difficult to get it to ignite so I suspect that if they weren't able to set more than smoldering fires, it was because the fuel source was too green. THe 1983 fire was believed to be started by a cigarette--not spontaneous. I actually have seen a spontaneous fire caused by heat but it involved hay bales that were allowed to reach an internal combustible temp. Burned an entire barn down in a matter of minutes because there was so much fuel to feed it. Straw, hay and corrugated cardboard brings it's own air fuel mix in. Ready to burn ever so intense. I went back to Gov. Documents and the area (nearby forts say 4 inches of rain in May, 2 inches in June 1876). And consulting with my cousin who lives 100 miles away. It would not likely to be dusty or support a grass fire. Cheat Grass which came from Europe he call's greassy grass and is now the dominante grass in many places now and it burns easier than our original prairie mix. Beth has the soils report for the LBH battle site posted but at approximately 100 pages it would be a project. Short of that I would say in an area with a windblown soil you usually see blow outs (bald deep holes like a buffalo wallow but smaller), you see dunes, you see bunch grasses that accumulate and hold soil in the bunch so it's like a mound. Anybody seeing any of that? So I am a doubting Tom too lazy to learn to be a soil scientist and read the report. Then we have the little bigman clip and it is dusty but photography tends to exagerate the degree of visibility in dusts and mists. Fred I think said the temp measured as the high that day was 91 and he was falling into the temptation of extrapolating. So he guessed they took the temp in the shade ( a rare commodity on the high plains ) and it could have been as high as 100. I edited this when I got time to return so Beth was shooting at a moving target. Just a note on the High plains: you can have a day like that 91 and by midnight it's near freezing. Before global warming that's what we loved about the high plains. So in the high plains we get all the moisture from melting snow and spring rain and snow storms. The soil becomes saturated. The spring grass grows. The soil slowly dries out so in July or August the soil is dry and the grass is dead. So 6 inches for May/June is a typical not a dry year and so the ground is not likely dried out at all and the grass is still alive and it will not support combustion well till dry.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Oct 12, 2015 14:57:29 GMT -6
Cheat grass and greasy grass are not the same thing. Cheat grass is an invasive plant and is the kudzu of the west. It is highly flammable plus takes advantage of areas that have been burned in a grass fire by being able to re establish itself quickly. It is nasty nasty stuff because it has a barbed seed that will imbed itself painfully into skin and animal paws.
BTW if you look at picture of LBH you can clearly see cheatgrass in some locations.
As for dusty, we have eye witness accounts of the dust at the battlefields so even though weather records are handy, they can't tell us the exact weather on the battlefield. A few miles difference in location and a change in elevation can make a world of difference in the local climate.
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Oct 12, 2015 16:31:38 GMT -6
Reno claimed the dust was 6 inches deep on the lodge pole trail on Reno Creek. What other dust claims were there? Dust clouds behind 200-600 animals on a trail don't count. Trail and road dust is one thing but undamaged prairie in an entirely different beast.
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Oct 12, 2015 16:45:24 GMT -6
What is greasy grass then? There are many members of the Brom? genus of grass that the Cheat Grass belongs to native to North America. I tried to check about pollen sediments etc. It seems the PhD's are sure Cheat Grass was introduced from Europe. My cousin is just thinking it burns so quick and hot it must contain grease but carbohydrates burn just as fast especially sugar. We of course have the native grease wood bush.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Oct 12, 2015 17:27:57 GMT -6
What is greasy grass then? There are many members of the Brom? genus of grass that the Cheat Grass belongs to native to North America. I tried to check about pollen sediments etc. It seems the PhD's are sure Cheat Grass was introduced from Europe. My cousin is just thinking it burns so quick and hot it must contain grease but carbohydrates burn just as fast especially sugar. We of course have the native grease wood bush. I did a lot of research on what is greasy grass a few months back that is somewhere on this board. It seem possible that it wasn't a it wasn't a certain strain of grass but possibly good grass growing abudently that fattened ponies and bison. There several species are in the area and would fit the bill. It's not cheatgrass though--it wasn't in that area at the time and I don't think the NA would consider it a good grass. I suspect if there was a native name for cheatgrass, it would translate to 'that @&*^* stuff ." It also isn't another plant that is commonly called greasy grass or purple top grass because of that grass not in the NW US. The reason cheat grass is such a fire risk is that it is a winter annual so it's growing period is the same as winter wheat--it grows all winter and by spring it's ready to dry down and drops its seed in June--long before any native grass. When the area burns due to a fire, the cheatgrass seeds are already down in the soil and will germinate in the fall so it gets a huge head start on local plants plus each plant makes a bucket load of seeds so it just straggles out local plants. There are mixed results on studies on whether cattle grazing on cheatgrass makes the problem better or worse but there are promising studies about using bison.
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Oct 17, 2015 11:04:03 GMT -6
What is greasy grass then? There are many members of the Brom? genus of grass that the Cheat Grass belongs to native to North America. I tried to check about pollen sediments etc. It seems the PhD's are sure Cheat Grass was introduced from Europe. My cousin is just thinking it burns so quick and hot it must contain grease but carbohydrates burn just as fast especially sugar. We of course have the native grease wood bush. I did a lot of research on what is greasy grass a few months back that is somewhere on this board. It seem possible that it wasn't a it wasn't a certain strain of grass but possibly good grass growing abudently that fattened ponies and bison. There several species are in the area and would fit the bill. It's not cheatgrass though--it wasn't in that area at the time and I don't think the NA would consider it a good grass. I suspect if there was a native name for cheatgrass, it would translate to 'that @&*^* stuff ." It also isn't another plant that is commonly called greasy grass or purple top grass because of that grass not in the NW US. The reason cheat grass is such a fire risk is that it is a winter annual so it's growing period is the same as winter wheat--it grows all winter and by spring it's ready to dry down and drops its seed in June--long before any native grass. When the area burns due to a fire, the cheatgrass seeds are already down in the soil and will germinate in the fall so it gets a huge head start on local plants plus each plant makes a bucket load of seeds so it just straggles out local plants. There are mixed results on studies on whether cattle grazing on cheatgrass makes the problem better or worse but there are promising studies about using bison. I'll ask my cousin how the cheat grass is over on the B/B buffalo ranch where they had 2,000 head and see if he answers. Back to the burn. So we have Indians laying smoke like a modern army has anyone analyzed how it was to work to their advantage?
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 17, 2015 11:10:09 GMT -6
I can't imagine a riparian area not having something dry enough to burn unless it had previous burns or had been cleared.
Regards
AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 17, 2015 11:20:41 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 17, 2015 11:29:33 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Oct 17, 2015 13:43:30 GMT -6
Cool! Thanks for sharing! Beth
|
|