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Korea
May 12, 2015 12:41:59 GMT -6
Post by Yan Taylor on May 12, 2015 12:41:59 GMT -6
Chuck you are correct, there was a small Indian contingent attached to the British force in Korea; linkIan.
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Korea
May 12, 2015 12:48:51 GMT -6
Post by dave on May 12, 2015 12:48:51 GMT -6
QC I was not trying to underestimate them just curious if they were capable of striking south and taking the ROK. Kim Jong-un seems to be from what I have read and seen more unstable than his father. Doesn't hesitate to remove any family member or anyone else and seems truly paranoid and fascinated with missiles and rockets. Has he developed the cult worship that his loony daddy did? Would the military leaders follow his orders and potentially start another Police Action in Korea? Is he a paper tiger or truly a force to be reckoned with today. Will all the ISIS problems in the Mid East would he start something thinking we would either be too weak or war weary too deal with? Scary thoughts. Regards Dave
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Korea
May 12, 2015 13:05:11 GMT -6
Post by Beth on May 12, 2015 13:05:11 GMT -6
QC I was not trying to underestimate them just curious if they were capable of striking south and taking the ROK. Kim Jong-un seems to be from what I have read and seen more unstable than his father. Doesn't hesitate to remove any family member or anyone else and seems truly paranoid and fascinated with missiles and rockets. Has he developed the cult worship that his loony daddy did? Would the military leaders follow his orders and potentially start another Police Action in Korea? Is he a paper tiger or truly a force to be reckoned with today. Will all the ISIS problems in the Mid East would he start something thinking we would either be too weak or war weary too deal with? Scary thoughts. Regards Dave Good question because the man is a bat guano crazy , it was in the news today he is trying to deepen ties with Moscow. On the other hand this was also in the news. CNN link
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Korea
May 12, 2015 15:46:13 GMT -6
Beth likes this
Post by montrose on May 12, 2015 15:46:13 GMT -6
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Korea
May 12, 2015 15:59:15 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on May 12, 2015 15:59:15 GMT -6
Well Dave the answer is I don't know, and I don't believe anyone else does either.
I made the remark about underestimation to counter the press/media overestimation of pre-1991 Republican Guard nonsense. Now had we been talking The Coldstream Guard there may have been something to it.
I could give you a better estimate of what I think their land power capability is, had I an up to date, and complete order of battle. What I will say though sight unseen is if their tooth to tail ratio is not 50-50 or better (better being a higher tail side), then they do not have a prayer, in the medium to long term, and medium to long term is what is important.
Tooth to tail is the number or rather percentage of fighters your army can field as opposed to that number it takes to support the fighters and keep them in the field ---- fighting. In the U S army we express this ratio in what we call division slices. For approximately every 45 thousand soldiers contained in the end strength (that overall strength authorized by Congress) you can field one 15,000 man division. On the surface that is a 33% tooth to 67% tail. It is actually even greater when you consider that within that 15 thousand man division only about half have the job of coming in direct contact with the enemy. I believe the active army is now capped out around 480 thousand and we field 10 divisions on active duty. All my career I heard our tooth is too low, and our tail to high. There is someone saying this same thing this minute in the E-Ring I will bet you dinner at the Broadmoor on it. People who say this know very little about how to structure a force. Ask yourself this, in your memory has any United States soldier or unit not been the best fed, the best equipped, the best supplied, and best maintained soldier in all the world.
Loud mouth amateurs like that cretan on the other board who modify the posts of people with the child like innocence of that dear boy Dropin, talk tactics and mindsets (which has no value from him other than comedy) and professionals talk logistics and structure, and know there is no such thing as fix and flank.
I am very concerned with that loony having a ballistic missile sub though.
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Korea
May 12, 2015 17:38:02 GMT -6
dave likes this
Post by Beth on May 12, 2015 17:38:02 GMT -6
I'm not an alarmist, but the looney has the upbringing and personality of Caligula. Hopefully somewhere there is a Cassius
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Korea
May 12, 2015 17:49:01 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 17:49:01 GMT -6
I'm not an alarmist, but the looney has the upbringing and personality of Caligula. Hopefully somewhere there is a Cassius This is the problem with our foreign policy these days. People/Leaders we don't understand, we fear and want them replaced by whatever means. We've had great success with our forced regime change!! Consider what the Middle East would look like had we left Saddam and his "WMD" stock pile alone. We wouldn't be dealing with what we are now. Regards Mark
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Korea
May 12, 2015 20:07:58 GMT -6
Post by dave on May 12, 2015 20:07:58 GMT -6
QC Is logistics a tactic or is it logistics then tactics? The more I study these posts and threads I see more and more the importance of logistics. I guess I mean beans and bullets. Regards Dave
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Korea
May 12, 2015 21:20:27 GMT -6
Post by dave on May 12, 2015 21:20:27 GMT -6
Sooner or later we will need to discuss the No Gun Ri Massacre of 1950. Sitting in my chair looking back 65 years it is easy to judge without having been there or in similar harrowing circumstances. The war started 1 month before and the pressures of fatigue, shock, shortage of supplies, adrenal fatigue, uncertainty of being over run and/or surrounded compounded by the inability to determine friend from foe had to be significant factors contributing to the tragic events that unfolded. I wish I could express myself more clearly because I am not attempting to condemn or exonerate the participants I only want to understand what the true circumstances were. Regards Dave
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Korea
May 12, 2015 21:27:06 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on May 12, 2015 21:27:06 GMT -6
Writ broadly Dave logistics are the things, managed by people, who make it possible for trigger pullers to pull , if they are developed above the level of raggedy ass militiatriggers.
The Army as a total combat force, is divided three ways, Combat, Combat Support, Combat Service Support. Combat speaks for itself. Combat support is where you find signal, MI, MP and so forth. Combat Service Support is the playground of the logisticians, the Quartermasters, Transporters, Ordnance and their fellow travelers.
We have a very high tail to tooth ratio in the U S Army, and that is due to a focus on force projection, worldwide. Armies that have only one area of interest can get by with much more of a level ratio. Studying these forces, of those armies developed beyond that of raggedy ass militia tell us though that it is a grave mistake to let the teeth get higher than fifty percent of the total force. You see ratios that exceed 50 percent in many Middle Easter countries, and they all share one thing in common, lack of maintenance and a vibrant logistical infrastructure. In other words their shinny toys aren't worth crap because they can't or won't maintain and supple them.
Beans and bullets, potable water, are the three necessities of life for the individual soldier. Give him a truck or an APC or a tank or a helicopter and life gets a little more complicated. The more you progress upward from the basic soldier's tool, the rifle, the more you must devote to logistics.
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Korea
May 12, 2015 21:29:13 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on May 12, 2015 21:29:13 GMT -6
Take a peek at who compiled at wrote Of Garry Owen In Glory, and you will see a familiar name in connection with No Gun Ri.
Stuff happens Dave. In war tragic stuff happens. In war when untrained troops are thrust into the horror of combat after sitting on their asses guarding the Imperial Palace for five years, and having been stripped of all their experienced NCOs to fill earlier deploying units, really bad tragic stuff happens. No excuses. Just reasons.
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Korea
May 13, 2015 3:05:54 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2015 3:05:54 GMT -6
Take a peek at who compiled at wrote Of Garry Owen In Glory, and you will see a familiar name in connection with No Gun Ri. Stuff happens Dave. In war tragic stuff happens. In war when untrained troops are thrust into the horror of combat after sitting on their asses guarding the Imperial Palace for five years, and having been stripped of all their experienced NCOs to fill earlier deploying units, really bad tragic stuff happens. No excuses. Just reasons. Stuff happens?!? Refugees murdered is reduced to stuff happens. Standing orders were to shoot refugees. Not a great moment in the history of the army. Another incident the army tried their best to cover-up and whitewash.
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Korea
May 13, 2015 5:24:12 GMT -6
Post by tubman13 on May 13, 2015 5:24:12 GMT -6
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Korea
May 13, 2015 5:30:04 GMT -6
Post by Yan Taylor on May 13, 2015 5:30:04 GMT -6
Equipment wise the western allies will always be one step ahead of any Soviet armed militia. Just look at the combat record of any Russian armed force since 1945. Even the Israelis armed with British Centurions gave the ex-Soviet T-55 tanks hell.
Now I know that any weapon can kill you, but I would think that the combination of inferior Soviet weapons and the lack of training that some of these armies have would tip the balance in our favour.
But of course I am not the one getting shot at.
Ian.
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Korea
May 13, 2015 8:05:39 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on May 13, 2015 8:05:39 GMT -6
Well Ian the T-34 gave us a lot of trouble in the early days. The 2.36 RL could not touch it and the M24 tank that first went to Korea could not do much either. NKPA tank gunnery was not very good, but it was good enough to scare the hell out of soldiers whose only armored protection was a fatigue jacket. The 3.5 RL and the Marines M26 tanks countered this, and between these two and the M4 Easy 8's we did not have a lot of trouble from then on. You don't here all that much about NKPA armor after the Naktong River.
The rest of the NKPA weaponry was not that bad. Some evidence exists that they did not have enough of it, but the real factor for them is they could never be kept adequately supplied.
Also remember the NKPA had their share of hard asses in the officer and NCO ranks, with a lot of experience. Their ability to maneuver was brilliant, and outstripped our ability, until we learned to deal with their ways. Same later with the CCF.
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