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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 9, 2015 6:31:26 GMT -6
Hi Mac, yes I agree, pressure would have been building all around that hill and due to the terrain the true gravity of the situation may have not have dawned on Calhoun or even Keogh for that matter, so it was just a matter of time before they found the place untenable, and it wasn’t like Keogh had been given a time frame, on the lines of "give us around 30 minutes and pull your men out Benteen or no Benteen and follow or trail"
Ian.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 6:33:41 GMT -6
What is it about Reno's story that you find sad? Reno was a brave, gallant man and a good officer who was unfairly labeled a coward and a drunk by what we now would call tabloid or yellow journalists. JHis record in the CW is good enough that he was brevated to a Brg. General even though most people seem to have forgotten that today. Ever wonder why history still refers to Custer as the General but not Reno--both men held the rank after all. Every evidence points to the fact that he loved his wife and together they balanced each other. After her death though His in-laws denied him custody of his son, in part because he was unable to return for her funeral. Can you imagine how Custer would have handled being denied attending Libby's funeral if the shoe was on the other foot? I believe that is when Reno's drinking grew worse, but he surely wasn't the only person seperated from his family, newly widowed, and lonely to self medicate with a bottle. Reno seems to have been a person who spent his life working in and with the 'system.' It must have been galling to have to work with someone like Custer who flaunted the system. It might have made for what today we would call a toxic workplace. Also I wonder if his injury from 1863 was ever fixed, or as most hernia repairs did at the time--relapsed. (I have been reading up just to check). If it had relapsed, then like many others in the cavalry with their worn out bodies would have been in perhaps constant pain. I can't even imagine what that would have been like -especially day after day riding a horse. Beth "Reno was a brave and gallant man"....I will leave that one alone and let it breathe a little!! Perhaps Custer continued to be refered to as General because of the level respect his men, fellow officers, and superiors had for him. How did Custer flaunt the system? Don't forget it took Reno two extra years to graduate from West Point due to the number of demerits he racked up and poor performance.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 9, 2015 7:31:44 GMT -6
Scar, I just judge Reno on what happened on 25th June 1876 and from what I have read it seems like Reno through no fault of his own got caught with his pants down, unsupported in a valley and totally out numbered he managed get out without losing his whole battalion, Custer lost every man jack of his battalion(s).
Ian.
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Carl
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Post by Carl on Feb 9, 2015 7:56:57 GMT -6
Reno was a brave, gallant man and a good officer who was unfairly labeled a coward and a drunk by what we now would call tabloid or yellow journalists. JHis record in the CW is good enough that he was brevated to a Brg. General even though most people seem to have forgotten that today. Ever wonder why history still refers to Custer as the General but not Reno--both men held the rank after all. Every evidence points to the fact that he loved his wife and together they balanced each other. After her death though His in-laws denied him custody of his son, in part because he was unable to return for her funeral. Can you imagine how Custer would have handled being denied attending Libby's funeral if the shoe was on the other foot? I believe that is when Reno's drinking grew worse, but he surely wasn't the only person seperated from his family, newly widowed, and lonely to self medicate with a bottle. Reno seems to have been a person who spent his life working in and with the 'system.' It must have been galling to have to work with someone like Custer who flaunted the system. It might have made for what today we would call a toxic workplace. Also I wonder if his injury from 1863 was ever fixed, or as most hernia repairs did at the time--relapsed. (I have been reading up just to check). If it had relapsed, then like many others in the cavalry with their worn out bodies would have been in perhaps constant pain. I can't even imagine what that would have been like -especially day after day riding a horse. Beth "Reno was a brave and gallant man"....I will leave that one alone and let it breathe a little!! Perhaps Custer continued to be refered to as General because of the level respect his men, fellow officers, and superiors had for him. How did Custer flaunt the system? Don't forget it took Reno two extra years to graduate from West Point due to the number of demerits he racked up and poor performance. Incorrect. At that time it was a 5 year course. Reno therefore repeated only one year.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 8:04:55 GMT -6
"Reno was a brave and gallant man"....I will leave that one alone and let it breathe a little!! Perhaps Custer continued to be refered to as General because of the level respect his men, fellow officers, and superiors had for him. How did Custer flaunt the system? Don't forget it took Reno two extra years to graduate from West Point due to the number of demerits he racked up and poor performance. Incorrect. At that time it was a 5 year course. Reno therefore repeated only one year.Carl, can you direct me to the source? Everything I have read says he was suspended for two one year periods because of demerits and performance.
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 9, 2015 8:24:56 GMT -6
Carl, you mentioned Moylan earlier. I think in every way he demonstrated he wanted a military career. May have joined the dragoons in 1857 under age. Court Martialed for AWOL in Washington, re-enlisted under another name returned to the ACW. Joined the Cavalry under his own name in 1866. Took the Officers test twice, before he got it right. Spent 35 years in service to his country.
While many considered by many part of the Custer clan, he wrote a letter to his brother officers in support of Reno conducting of the valley action. I think he also had good words for Benteen. It has been years since I read the letter, it appeared in "The Custer Myth", the letter may have been penned to Godfrey.
Regards, Tom
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 9, 2015 8:29:11 GMT -6
Scareface, it was a 5 year program, he was suspended for a year and had to make up a year. He graduated 20 out of 38.
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Carl
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Post by Carl on Feb 9, 2015 9:10:14 GMT -6
Incorrect. At that time it was a 5 year course. Reno therefore repeated only one year. Carl, can you direct me to the source? Everything I have read says he was suspended for two one year periods because of demerits and performance. I was wrong. The cadets who entered in 1854 were divided into 2 groups based on age, with the younger ones taking a 5 year course and thus graduating in 1859. Since Reno entered in 1851, he did take 6 years to graduate. Not that that matters. Many trumpet the fact that Custer was last in his class.
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 9, 2015 11:13:11 GMT -6
The first time I looked at a map I felt that the Calhoun position was not sustainable for any length of time due to the nature of the terrain. Sure C Co was the first domino to fall but as soon as the Indians decided to attack it was just a matter of time before weight of numbers would take that position. Once they were in position any concerted effort by the Indians would have been successful as they could attack from multiple directions due to the terrain. Despite what anyone may say they had enough "smarts" to have figured that out and enough courage to eventually push their numerical advantage. Cheers QC,
The issue for me is that any swivel by L to cover C survivors would remove L's window of opportunity to itself withdraw northwards in good order.
Neither Benteen or anybody else was coming through that opposition, so it was time to withdraw from Calhoun Hill before being overrun.
WO
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Post by dave on Feb 9, 2015 11:26:11 GMT -6
SF Reno served his country in peace and war, far more than most Americans. I am somewhat ambivalent about him and his performance at LBH. I see a man placed under the most trying of circumstances and doing his best. He seems to be the guy that just can't get out of his own way and continually steps on himself. I feel it only right to study this man and battle further to establish my own beliefs. On the other hand he made many decisions with what information he had available, and is rightfully judged for those choices. I often think perhaps, maybe it is just me, we make judgements with color lenses that reflect a bias prior to all evidence being accumulated. I wish I could express myself as well as others on this board but will have to do with my stumbling efforts. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Feb 9, 2015 11:29:33 GMT -6
I make reference to Ian's post of yesterday, where he mentions cavalry companies had 70 all ranks, and upped to 100 in short order.
It might be well to review this for newcomers. It has been covered before. Few understand it, not only here but also in the Army and Congress.
There are three strength levels of personnel and equipment that matter---REQUIRED---AUTHORIZED---ON HAND. What is required, and what is authorized do not mean a hill of beans in combat. The only thing that matters is what you have on hand.
REQUIRED STRENGTH: The basis for this is the force design itself, where the designers say this is what you need in war time to accomplish the tasks required of that level of organization. For a cavalry company of 1876 that was 100 men, and the amount of equipment necessary to equip those men in full. That is what we call a Table of Organization and Equipment (TO&E) or what the Cousins call Full War Establishment. Those tables are constant regardless of level of fill authorized.
AUTHORIZED STRENGTH: This is the level that Congress is willing to pay for. It seems in 1876 Congress was willing to pay for a 70% fill. At 70% a company is marginally combat effective, meaning that it can perform some of the tasks it was designed for but not all, and not all that well without placing undue strain on the organization. I don't know, but don't think there was any formal document like the MTO&E that we would develop today. Today we would annotate the MTO&E by delineating just what positions within the company were authorized to fill. The only benefit of the 1876 system is that Congress could increase the authorized level to required level by a stroke of the budget pen, as they did post LBH, without the process of designing a new manning document. Congress says fill to full required and you have the budgetary means to fill.
ON HAND STRENGTH: This is what you have on the Morning Report as present for duty on any particular day. It is the number that shows up for morning formation. It does not include the sick, the lame, the lazy, those on detail, or some other assigned duty that takes that person away from the company. Based upon the on hand strength of all of the companies of the 7th Cavalry on 25 June there was not one of them that was combat effective. Not one. In other words none of them could perform any of the tasks for which they were designed. NONE ZIPPO, NADA. If you are looking for systemic cause of defeat, you need look no further. Add into that the largely substandard officer leadership and performance, with a few exceptions, and you have the ingredients for disaster, just like baking a cake, no eggs and rancid butter.
George Pickett was last in his class as well.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 9, 2015 11:36:01 GMT -6
WO: The minute L went L shaped is was, as my grandmother used to say, all over but the shouting.
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 9, 2015 11:58:20 GMT -6
QC,
That was the critical moment in relation to wipe out, for me. GAC was not physically blocked from vacating Battle Ridge eastwards, whatever the later implications. He had some tired mounts and men, but he wasn't faced by a large hostile force in situ to his east with fresh ponies.
WO
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 11:59:57 GMT -6
Carl, can you direct me to the source? Everything I have read says he was suspended for two one year periods because of demerits and performance. I was wrong. The cadets who entered in 1854 were divided into 2 groups based on age, with the younger ones taking a 5 year course and thus graduating in 1859. Since Reno entered in 1851, he did take 6 years to graduate. Not that that matters. Many trumpet the fact that Custer was last in his class.Thanks for clarifying Carl.
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Post by chris on Feb 9, 2015 12:18:07 GMT -6
I wish I could express myself as well as others on this board but will have to do with my stumbling efforts. Regards Dave Dave, looks like you're doing fine. Best, c.
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