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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 9, 2015 13:33:08 GMT -6
I don't think it was a conspiracy but it does have a hint of cover-up about it. Reno was ordered to attack the village - that is not in dispute. He abandoned this order shortly after coming under fire. Benteen was ordered to come quick and bring the packs; he didn't. They had their orders and they failed to obey. Custer would have known that Reno had engaged, Benteen was coming, so he moved forward with his attack. He had set the pieces in motion and pressed his attack. I would think when he attacked he would have expected Reno to continue his assault on the village and for Benteen to follow in the rear. That doesn't mean you don't need to communicate. Seems like the results speak for themselves. I don't believe any of these officers decided at any time they were not going to do a good job and went into this battle to win. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 9, 2015 13:34:20 GMT -6
Welcome Scarface, if you read the RCOI and other accounts, you will find that Custer gave his two senior officers very little in the way of orders, Benteen was told to go to the left by Custer and scout the ground, after that any other orders he received come from NCOs, Benteen himself saw no real goal in this mission and he said in so many words that he would find no Indians up there, he mentioned something to Custer and the reply was Captain you have your orders, the same with Reno, he received his orders from Lt. Cook, again these were pretty straight forward with no real plan, beggars belief what orders if any he may have gave to Keogh, in fact the only two officers who may have got some sense out of him were TWC and Lt. Cook.
Ian.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 13:38:55 GMT -6
What of the order to Benteen to come quick? Why would Benteen choose to ignore it? He obviously knew Custer had engaged and needed support.
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Post by welshofficer on Jan 9, 2015 13:42:17 GMT -6
I don't think it was a conspiracy but it does have a hint of cover-up about it. Reno was ordered to attack the village - that is not in dispute. He abandoned this order shortly after coming under fire. Benteen was ordered to come quick and bring the packs; he didn't. They had their orders and they failed to obey. Custer would have known that Reno had engaged, Benteen was coming, so he moved forward with his attack. He had set the pieces in motion and pressed his attack. I would think when he attacked he would have expected Reno to continue his assault on the village and for Benteen to follow in the rear. Scarface,
(1) Reno did not cease attacking. He decided that an assault into the village with the unsupported forces available was not feasible. He was correct to do so.
(2) What exactly was Benteen ordered to do? There was certainly nothing in writing to ignore Reno's battalion and battle through to the Yates/Keogh battalions.
(3) Did GAC ever attack? He never assaulted.
WO
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 9, 2015 13:42:41 GMT -6
How was Benteen supposed to know Reno was engaged? He was supposed ride over hills and dales and pitch into anything he found. Forgot my manors welcome scarface. By the way, an officer's 1st responsibility is for his men, it certainly would have been not very responsible to continue that attack with out promised support.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 9, 2015 13:43:59 GMT -6
SF, we have debated the note for years and each person reads something different in the message, Benteen had his own assumptions and followed those out to how he construed the contains.
Ian.
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Post by fred on Jan 9, 2015 13:53:20 GMT -6
What of the order to Benteen to come quick? Why would Benteen choose to ignore it? Who says he ignored it? He received that message when he was less than a mile from the river. He immediately moved to the river, then up the bluffs where he ran into Reno's broken command. How is that ignoring the order? How is that not being quick? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 9, 2015 13:53:44 GMT -6
Scarface: I am going to give you a provisional pass.
The provision is that you tell me what order Reno disobeyed or did not follow, and tell me what order Benteen disobeyed or did not follow.
Be very, very careful with your answer.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 13:54:19 GMT -6
"Benteen explained to the 1879 Court of Inquiry why he did what he did, and his reasoning is equally clear from subsequent remarks. He thought it impossible to obey; to do so would have been suicide. "We were at their hearths and homes," he said, referring to the Sioux, "their medicine was working well, and they were fighting for all the good God gives anyone to fight for." " — Evan S. Connell in Son of the Morning Star, pg. 281[2]"
To do so would have been suicide...To me it smells like cowardice. Reno lost his head, Benteen didn't have the stomach for it. Both failed Custer miserably. Weir and his Company understood Custer's order to Benteen; shame Benteen couldn't or as I believe, wouldn't.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 9, 2015 13:57:14 GMT -6
What of the order to Benteen to come quick? Why would Benteen choose to ignore it? He obviously knew Custer had engaged and needed support. The order was not ignored, but come where, it was you who mentioned supporting Reno. Was he to leave Reno to his fate? Could he have even gotten through to Custer? I wonder what branch of the service you were in? Did you ever disobey or question an order? I was in the USAF one my duties, at one time, was to run a dining hall. If I was ordered to stick my head in an oven I might, but would not leave it there. Please understand I am not attacking you, we do however have a very different perspective.
Regards, Tom
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Post by fred on Jan 9, 2015 14:02:44 GMT -6
Reno was ordered to attack the village - that is not in dispute. He abandoned this order shortly after coming under fire. That is absolutely incorrect. Where did you read that? That is also completely incorrect. Where did you read that? That is completely false; it has no resemblance to reality, to what happened. Where did you read that? Correct. Custer actually saw Reno in action. Really? How did Custer know that? And what makes you think they did not? Reno moved forward until he was virtually surrounded. Then he continued to fight, pulling back into the timber. When he realized he was greatly outnumbered and almost surrounded, he decided to save what he could of his command... and he charged out of the woods. And Benteen did precisely what he was ordered to do. Personally, I think you need to analyze this thing a lot better and take the opinions of others a lot less seriously than this post shows. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 9, 2015 14:03:23 GMT -6
To do so would have been suicide...To me it smells like cowardice. Reno lost his head, Benteen didn't have the stomach for it. Both failed Custer miserably. Weir and his Company understood Custer's order to Benteen; shame Benteen couldn't or as I believe, wouldn't. Sadly then Weir was a coward as well, because he stopped even when the rest of the command followed him. Probably causing him to drink himself to death inside of 6months.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 14:04:18 GMT -6
What of the order to Benteen to come quick? Why would Benteen choose to ignore it? He obviously knew Custer had engaged and needed support. The order was not ignored, but come where, it was you who mentioned supporting Reno. Was he to leave Reno to his fate? Could he have even gotten through to Custer? I wonder what branch of the service you were in? Did you ever disobey or question an order? I was in the USAF one my duties, at one time, was to run a dining hall. If I was ordered to stick my head in an oven I might, but would not leave it there. Please understand I am not attacking you, we do however have a very different perspective.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 9, 2015 14:05:37 GMT -6
SF, do you think that Benteen and Weir, and Reno for that matter, could have saved Custer? They turned up later in force, and had to get the hell out of the place, which was the right thing to do as Benteen saw another potential death trap looming, at first on Weir Point they could hardly see a thing because of the smoke and dust, I think they needed field glasses to see some Indians shooting on the ground, so how did they know that Custer was dead or alive, one things for sure none of them including Weir, tried to go and find out.
Ian.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 14:08:41 GMT -6
No Ian, I think Custer's fate was sealed by his own arrogance, but I do think Reno and Benteen could have served him better.
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