Terry's "orders"

[dcb188]

Speaking now primarily to CusterStillStands, to continue where we left off on another thread, this brings me to another question I wanted to ask you so I can learn more about this. Did Terry want Custer to be at a certain place on a certain day so they could get the Indians caught between the two units? Did Terry make this clear to Custer, of course saying also that wherever Custer found Indians he should by all means engage them. But didn't Terry have a larger picture in mind that he communicated to Custer? Is there anything to this? It sounds harsh when one hears that Custer disobeyed orders so I am wondering if there WERE any such orders specific or general from Terry to Custer or was Custer left entirely to his own devices?

[alfuso]

there is no meeting date in Terry's orders (and they were orders -- it was a very formal way of speaking back then. Grant's orders to Sheridan during CW are full of the same "if you will" "I should like", "I think you should.") And the last sentence clearly states that Custer was to report no later than rationed for, which was 15 days.

What part of "sufficient reason" to deviate from orders did Custer disobey?

And regardless of what may or may not have been discussed on board the FAR WEST, the written orders supercede anything else.

alfuso

[dcb188]

I thought Terry wanted Custer to meet him so they could trap the Indians between their commands.

[crzhrs]

I think the biggest issue was Custer's failure to send Herendeen to scout Tullock's Creek. Terry wanted some word of what was going on, whether it was about Tullock's Creek or Custer's progress at the time. Custer failed to do so, which may have resulted in Terry not moving quicker to the eventual scene of the battle and possibly, possibly being part of the attack on the village.

[dcb188]

But didn't Terry have a plan which he communicated to Custer, that he (Terry) wanted and expected to rendezvous with Custer so as to get the Indians caught between their respective commands?

[crzhrs]

I don't think there was any plan to rendezvous. More than likely what Terry expected was Custer to find and attack the Indians, which would result in a defeat for the Indians, and many fleeing. Terry then hoped they would run into the other commands in the area, and realize they had no option but to give up.

Most of his plan worked: Custer found the Indians but they ended up defeating Custer and left when Terry's command approached, even though many warriors were willing to take on the new soldiers, fortunately for Terry, they left.

[dcb188]

Not to keep on going here, but I thought Terry wanted Custer to be at the Little Big Horn or in the area by June 26th and Custer got there one day early etc. And Terry wanted to meet up with him and communicated this to Custer but obviously when Terry DID arrive as planned on the 26th it was too late. Is there nothing to this idea of Terry wanting Custer to come up on the 26th and get on one side of the Indians while Custer got on the other, then come at them from both directions? Because they all had intelligence that numbers of Indians were in that area, I think.

[custerstillstands]

"I think the biggest issue was Custer's failure to send Herendeen to scout Tullock's Creek."

Custer sent his scouts on highest hill to see the whole Tullocks Creek valley (according to lieutenant Godfrey). There wasn't any failure here.

Terry said that he wanted to join Custer on June 26th, but he also said to Custer to do the best he could do to find the Indians (according to Maria, Custer's cook). Terry clearly wanted Custer to fight it alone, as Colonel Gibbon said (Gibbon said that he was satisfied if Custer found the Indians, Gibbon's men shouldn't fight them).

Lieutenant Bradley's diary (June 22 1876) : "It's clear that if Custer find the Indians first, he is free to attack them alone"

[alfuso]

dcbi88

show me where the 26th was mentioned as a date to meet anywhere in Custer's orders or anywhere *before* the LBH battle.

If it was, then Terry was a day late. Even Sheridan wrote of the futility of coordinating 3 groups over hundreds of miles without even telegraph.

After the fact, Terry did some CYA be inventing the 26th meeting date.

The key is the last sentence of Terry's order. And in another thread, Reno's report mentioning seeing what they thought was Custer's men on the 27th because it was "too early" to be Terry.

alfuso

[dcb188]

That is why I said it seems to me that Terry wanted to meet Custer. I thought Terry wanted to catch the Indians between him and Custer and so I was inquiring if anyone had ever heard that.

[custerstillstands]

As alfuso said, Terry's plan was somewhat impossible. Terry thought to catch the Indians with three columns, but before Custer started his campaign, he told him to go alone and fight them wherever he could find them (according to Maria, Custer's cook)

[custerstillstands]

"show me where the 26th was mentioned as a date to meet anywhere in Custer's orders or anywhere *before* the LBH battle."

Lieutenant Bradley says so in his diary, but you're correct, Custer didn't have it in his orders. Terry didn't want Custer to care about June 26th. He only wanted him to find and fight Indians.

[dcb188]

So there was no order from Terry except for Custer to go out on his own and engage Indians wherever he could. That is all I wanted to know. What I read somewhere must have been inaccurate. But there are so many books on this subject it is hard to know what really happened. But Terry really did not expect to find Custer at all then, because he could hardly know where Custer WENT to fight Indians. But Terry still showed up in the area where Custer was anyway, probably by chance as they were pretty sure there were a lot of Indians in that general area. That helps me a lot. Thank you for the information on these kinds of things. I guess not everything in books is true

[alfuso]

they were moving towaards the LBH. That IS in Terry's orders. But Custer found them a day closer. And Terry had less men than Custer had.

alfuso

[custerstillstands]

But some serious books are better than others