Timing issues and distance.

[herosrest]

Luther Hare, of course. Camped on Rosebud about 5:00 p.m. June 24. Marched again at 11:00 p.m. and does not know how far from camp to point where turned up Davis Creek. Did not know how left Rosebud until next morning. Marched until some time before daylight and then went into camp and lay there until between 8 and 9. Before this Custer had been out ahead with scouts viewing valley of Little Bighorn. Marched again between 8 and 9 and went up nearly to divide and halted. Lay concealed less than 1/2 mile east of divide for more than an hour. This was between 10:00 a.m. and noon. During this halt Custer again went to Crows Nest to look at Indians.

After Custer had come down from Crows Nest he heard Mitch Bouyer say to him: "General I have been with these Indians for 30 years and this is the largest village I have ever known of," evidently judging from the signs of the trail.

After leaving the divide Varnum pulled out with the Rees, and Hare took the Crows. (ouch!) Custer told Hare to keep a lookout and send back a report as soon as he should discover any Indians. Hare pulled out and after going some distance looked back and saw Custer coming right behind him with the command so he (Hare) increased his gait, but before he got to lone tepee was overtaken by Sergt. Major Sharrow in a great rush with Custer's compliments and said he (Custer) had as yet heard nothing from Hare. Hare sent back his compliments and said he would report Indians as soon as he could get sight of any of them. Hare says Custer seemed to be very impatient, as above account shows. (Custer's sending two or three men after Benteen, in same manner after Benteen had struck out, illustrates the same thing.)

Before got to lone tepee Varnum's scouts had come over to Hare, and Varnum and his orderly had gone on ahead toward the river. Varnum returned and met Hare just before got to lone tepee. At lone tepee Hare heard Cooke tell Reno to go on in pursuit of the Indians and Custer would follow right behind and support him. Thinks Custer may have later repeated the order verbally. Before this Custer had ordered the scouts ahead but they refused to go and Custer ordered them to be dismounted and their horses taken from them. Gerard explained matters to the Rees and so they rode out ahead of Reno and reached Ford A about 1/2 mile ahead of them.

(Note) By this recollection, Peter Thompson can be accommodated, however Custer then visited Crow's Nest twice - which generates debates which challenge drying paint for priorities.

(Note) Rees did not want to go alone. Wanted soldiers with them. This was result of misunderstanding on their part.

It is possible the Rees felt that they would act as lightnig rods for trouble, in striking first.)

Shroedinger's - A Trooper with Custer: Augustus DeVoto's Account of the Little Big Horn - Previewed at JSTor www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/4519273?sid=21105708152711&uid=4&uid=2&uid=70&uid=3738032&uid=2134 and researched by Université Libre de Bruxelles - Année académique 2013-2014 - Faculté de Philosophie & Lettres; here = www.academia.edu/8751733/The_Battle_of_Little_Big_Horn

For those who just cannot get enough, here's Fox's take on it unravelling rather than disintegrating. homepage.ntlworld.com/adam.fox57/MikeFox/LBH/T

DeVoto is central to comprehending &th Cavalry's advance but little availed of. Remarkable! Yes. Brussels has sprouted interest in the battle.

[tubman13]

Lord, HR, It's like reading a book.

[herosrest]

Exactly - only better - n'est pas?

So here we are deep into the everyday scratching inherent to heavy cotton dunagees on insect infested plains. The little Bighorn was heavily infested with fly, during the warming months of 1876. A horrid distraction.. bzzzzzt,,, bzzzzzt. In a very practical reality, this may explain an awful lot of waving of hats given to have occurred pm 25.6.76 Numbers believed present amongst the hostile host would have left an immense deposit of their humanity along their routes of travels. Considering this aspect of the affair, there was relatively little water available to the gathered host camped in the South Fork of Reno Creek and its divide with Reno Creek.

Numerous accounts left by participants, recall Custer leaving the advance hidden in a ravine as he rode ahead. This is distinctly unrelated to accounts which give him leaving a resting camp after the night halt laager.

George Herendeen became controvercial, for not scouting Tulloch's Forks and reporting to Gen. Terry but of course the written instruction instructed for him to scout Tulloch Creek which is an immense confusion since the Creek and forks are unrelated on period maps. As we shall discover later, Terry's orders were fulfilled by Custer although not by Herendeen.

Herendeen gave interviews twice to the Helena Herald before the RCoI and broadly plumbed in support of Custer rather than Reno and gave Benteen to be immensely brave. Bruce Brown has the accounts published (butchered) on Astonisher, linked (voila)
www.astonisher.com/archives/museum/geo_herendeen2_little_big_horn.html
www.astonisher.com/archives/museum/geo_herendeen_little_big_horn.html
It is obvious that post battle influence which developed in respect Whittaker and Reno's Inquiry have drifted quite some fog over events and clouded memories. Such is life and those who do the Inquiry as the battle, do that. Odd as it truly is.


From Herendeen, it can be constructed that the second halt occured at some five or so miles from the Rosebud LBH Divide, as stated by Gibson, and Benteen and quite a few participants before Whittaker did his thing. Custer's second trip was not made to the Crow's Nest since he would have ridden off to the rear of his command in that case. That is not what he did and it is a fact of general life that a majority of people delving around 7th Cavalry's doings at LBH have considerable confusion in differentiating rectum and medial epicondyle.

For those with broader perspective of events than the right wrongs and wrong rights of which officers screwed up what, here is insight to some of their consequences. An interesting and little considered adventure across the border by some interesting people. archive.org/details/surrendersittin00alligoog enjoy!

[herosrest]

Those not up for the negotiations with SB at Cypress Hills, might prefer to consider Hutchings visit to Herendeen's battleground in the South Fork of Reno Creek.

digital.libraries.ou.edu/whc/nam/manuscripts/Campbell_WS_112_01.pdf

The letter beginning at page 10, 1948 mentions ongoing effort to publish the Freeman Diary. Done eventually 100 years after the battle.

Page 17 refers to one of the hostiles routes to engage Crook at Rosebud.

From page 78 is detail of the fight on the South Fork. Hutchings did quite a bit of research and I believe that photographs of the scene exist, which are on my to do list. Unfortunately, I have learned that the best place to construct these things is on paper to hand whilst in the W.C.

1 Research correspondence regarding the following topics:

a. the activities of the hostile Sitting Bull band near Fort Peck in 1880. b. the Reynolds-Crazy Horse battlefield.
c. corrections in Campbell’s map showing the location of the Wagon Box Fight, the Fetterman Fight, and Fort Phil Kearny.
d. Indian maneuvers prior to the Crook fight on the Rosebud Creek.
e. Indians located at the Fort Peck Agency in 1874.
f. Dr. James Ferguson’s account of how his father might have been with Gen. George A. Custer. Includes accounts of Fort Sisseton, Fort Hale, and Fort Bennett.
g. correspondence of Nelson G. Edwards regarding army life in the old West.
h. correspondence discussing an Indian engagement 40 miles south of Fort Connor (Fort Reno, Wyoming) in July, 1865.
i. correspondence from James S. Hutchins regarding the “six-pounder iron gun” used against the Indians on the Bozeman Trail, the fight with the Bozeman party in 1874 on the Rosebud, and comments on Chief Red End of Horn (He-intpa-luta) and High Back Bone.

Oh...... nearly forgot - a long lost interview with Yellow Nose, is there

[herosrest]

Hutchings earlier letters, full of useful interesting stuff, are here - digital.libraries.ou.edu/whc/nam/manuscripts/Campbell_WS_109_3.pdf

with other odds and ends such as Garlington's enquiry about the survivor who hid inside a dead horse. I've reseached this...... it's an interesting story and true. Sort of.

It relates to Billy Cross. He was a friend of Fred Server and the tale has drifted back in gossip from the hotel Server ran near the battleground.

[tubman13]

I have previously read of a 2nd trip to Crows nest, I have also heard it dismissed.

[herosrest]

www.amff.com/assets/images/archived-journals/2010-Vol36-No4web.pdf

[dave]

HR
With the last post were you thinking of Benteen? I heard he liked fly fishing but not sure. Have you communicated with him?
Regards
Dave

[herosrest]

Mar 20, 2015 18:44:12 GMT -6 tubman13 said:

I have previously read of a 2nd trip to Crows nest, I have also heard it dismissed.

That's one of discussion's virtues, but of course it takes two. This battle is great instruction in points of view. Here is a rare image - George Herendeen -

I say, without concern, he is stood staring at me in this picture also.



Therefore, the image was taken in 1877 and the officer is Nowlan. Or Sheridan.

[herosrest]

Anysways..... the interesting point which Herendeen made is that the valley and dust in iy, could be seen - 'we found ourselves in a freshly abandoned Indian camp, all the lodges of which were gone except the one we saw, and on entering it we found it contained a dead Indian. From this point we could see into the Little Horn valley, and observed heavy clouds of dust rising about five miles distant.

So, scouts up on a butte in that locale, would have a better view.


With the fishing article, I reckon the publishers just found an angle to include some Lima Bravo. Everyone does.

[herosrest]

Mar 19, 2015 21:34:06 GMT -6 tubman13 said:

Lord, HR, It's like reading a book.

It is noted.... that many who follow and research LBH, hold passing interest or an aspect of guardianship which does 'NOT' extend to parenthesis (see below) and endless notes such as invariably adorn and frequent the chapters of all battle related books and theses. The simple battle long ago became a complicated hydra of constructed rhetoric and sycophantic pedantry. The underlying matter considered here is typical of the slight of hand practiced with the battle.

How many times did Custer move ahead of his command to observe the village in the valley, becomes a complete nightmare of applied stupidity for 137 years because Reno (principally) decided he was unaware of any battle plan! How pathetic is that.... he was to be supported but there was no plan of battle! This is oxymoron stupidity.

Battle books tend to include huge cross referencing to previous work, almost paying homage, and this can be tedious in passing interest. It is most certainly pedantic beyond reason these days and is becoming increasingly misleading and occaisionally dishonest. There are infrequent errors which should be pointed out to authors but once a lie is in print, it becomes fact or accepted opinion. The battle has become complicated and as in all walks of life there are people who cheat at it. There are people who are dishonest in regards this battle. How many times did Custer ride to the Crow's Nest? If you are convinced it was only once - then he made more than one ride ahead of the command to discuss with his scouts their observation of the valley. This is awkward because it mitigates against Reno's basically stupid premise that no plan existed, that Custer was winging it.

Criticising battle material as complicated, meandering, boring, tedious, is simply the attitude of back of the class with what is a very complicated modernity which is very much more than the sum of its parts and which is the result of huge biases, dislikes, factions and commercialism. There is agenda setting, manipulation of perception, elitism and.......... let's be honest - some very unusual oddity presenting as military expertise. A classic example is this - Reno retreated without orders to do so. That is not ok in the military. What Reno did has been called a break-out, recently here. The retreat was an emotional breakout and an embarrassment to him. The best he could do, in his own words and very pathetic which he could not admit. Reno has fans,,,,,,, which is quite incredible. I wonder who they are?

There is nothing complicated about my posts until they involve eight or more concurrencies, after which they can become challenging. People don't like the message - such is life.

Research note (added) Consider that Custer performed as badly or worse than Reno? [/b] Difficult.......... certainly possible. Not sure he would vomit though.

'He saw many soldiers retreating. Then at their head
he saw Reno, with a white handkerchief tied about
his head, his mouth and beard white with foam,
which dripped down, and his eyes were wild and rolling. - Red Bear, Ree scout.


NOUN - parenthesis

1.a word or phrase inserted as an explanation or afterthought into a passage which is grammatically complete without it, in writing usually marked off by brackets, dashes, or commas.
"in a challenging parenthesis, Wordsworth comments on the evil effects of contemporary developments" - synonyms: parenthesis · brace · round bracket · square bracket · [/b]

It should be simply obvious to casual followers of the battle that much of the related material was created for entertainment purposes.

2.an interlude or interval: [/fart]

It is obvious to the battle's broad audience that Custer's fight was a brief affair and as chaotic during retreat, as that of Reno. Since only months into post-mortem, the adept Whittaker presented forlorn seige behind slaughtered cavalry horses and instilled those inclined to melon and cholic with emotional enmity and worshipful hero and heroics. Such foolishness persists. Did Custer suicide? No - it was a mercy killing!

[tubman13]

Mar 21, 2015 3:44:40 GMT -6 herosrest said:

A classic example is this - Reno retreated without orders to do so. That is not ok in the military. What Reno did has been called a break-out, recently here. The retreat was an emotional breakout and an embarrassment to him. The best he could do, in his own words and very pathetic which he could not admit. Reno has fans,,,,,,, which is quite incredible. I wonder who they are?

While I am not a Reno fan,  your statement above is incorrect. The commander on sight has every right to retreat, halt an attack,  attempt a breakout, or to alter/change an attack plan as required by circumstance. Regards,Tom

[herosrest]

Mar 21, 2015 4:10:09 GMT -6 tubman13 said:

Mar 21, 2015 3:44:40 GMT -6 herosrest said:

A classic example is this - Reno retreated without orders to do so. That is not ok in the military. What Reno did has been called a break-out, recently here. The retreat was an emotional breakout and an embarrassment to him. The best he could do, in his own words and very pathetic which he could not admit. Reno has fans,,,,,,, which is quite incredible. I wonder who they are?

While I am not a Reno fan,  your statement above is incorrect. The commander on sight has every right to retreat, halt an attack,  attempt a breakout, or to alter/change an attack plan as required by circumstance. Regards,Tom

His actions were those of someone who had screwed up, and then been freaked out. He was drinking and that is a fact. He was drinking during the advance to fight in the valley. He was irrational. He was in panic. He was a U.S. Army Major in battle. He led the advance. He retreated without orders and prevented his support arriving to him! (In the valley and regardless of outcome) Whilst Reno faced stiff odds, say 1,000 to 150.... for arguments sake; Benteen, pack train manpower, and Company B - significantly reduced those odds. Once detected, Custer's command could not be ignored by the hostiles.

The effective answer - Reno was not the Commander. If he believed he was - he knew Custer was down.

What is your take on Custer's rides ahead of the command, from Halt 1. How do you explain it... honest interest in your thoughts.

[tubman13]

Mar 21, 2015 4:48:37 GMT -6 herosrest said:

Mar 21, 2015 4:10:09 GMT -6 tubman13 said:

His actions were those of someone who had screwed up, and then been freaked out. He was drinking and that is a fact. He was drinking during the advance to fight in the valley. He was irrational. He was in panic. He was a U.S. Army Major in battle. He led the advance. He retreated without orders and prevented his support arriving to him! (In the valley and regardless of outcome) Whilst Reno faced stiff odds, say 1,000 to 150.... for arguments sake; Benteen, pack train manpower, and Company B - significantly reduced those odds. Once detected, Custer's command could not be ignored by the hostiles.

The effective answer - Reno was not the Commander. If he believed he was - he knew Custer was down.

What is your take on Custer's rides ahead of the command, from Halt 1. How do you explain it... honest interest in your thoughts.

You are wrong, Reno was in command of 3 companies, it was entirely his call. He had no one to report to here. It was his call. He saved lives. Any drinking is irrelevant he was not charged. He may have been a bum in the eyes of many, but he made the call here, it was his job. He made the correct call, may have been sloppy, but the correct call.

When was Reno to expect support?  He saw Custer ride up to the bluffs and wave his hat. I saw things like that from the stands while playing HS football, but never expected the hat waver to block for me. The last time Reno saw Benteen he was toddling off to the left on the scout. He was told he would be supported by the whole outfit, he was lied to.

I don't care where Custer rides or when. What matters is he rode to his death with little command and control over his regiment degrading it's ability to fight effectively as he rode along. Sadly he took many to their death as he rode hither and yon.

Honestly I would like to see Custer in a different light, as I grew up thinking him a hero. The more I have read about this battle in particular, and the military in general, the hero myth has been dispelled. General Mac Arthur had  his press propaganda arm as well and he does not live up to the myth either. Patton also pales in some ways under close scrutiny. Both had, however, commanded at many levels and displayed skills Custer never learned. Patton throughout had just about the best intelligence available. Custer ignored it. Riding ahead does not make you a leader!!!

Regards,

Tom

[herosrest]

The tactical fight was a shambles. He was given a job to do and blew it. Benteen would have arrived to him in the valley.

There's no point us fighting it out, i'm off for the hills. Regards.


Walter Camp - Interview with Charles DeRudio, February 2, 1910

In the morning of June 25 Custer came back and said he had been up ahead with scouts, but his glasses were not strong enough to discover anything. DeRudio had the strongest glasses in the regiment, which had been presented to him by an Austrian optician, and Cooke came to DeRudio and asked if he would lend them to Custer. DeRudio did not like to do this, but consented, and Custer took them and went ahead again. When he returned he said he had seen some cloud-like objects which the scouts said were pony herds. Custer had these glasses when he was killed. After crossing divide, Company A was in the advance. Soon after this DeRudio saw a freshly killed buffalo at the side of the trail and after inspection concluded that the buffalo had been killed that morning.

After passing lone tepee, DeRudio stopped somewhere to fill his canteen and did not catch up with the command until it reached the river. Here he found Reno and Gerard sitting on horses in the river, Reno drinking from a bottle of whisky. DeRudio was the first man to ford the river, and as his horse surged ahead he splashed water on Reno, who said: ''What are you trying to do? Drown me before I am killed?"