|
Post by Gatewood on Jan 13, 2013 9:50:02 GMT -6
AZ,
You are of course correct about the bicycles not being a fighting vehicle. I just threw that in there as a tongue in cheek comment to lighten the mood.
AK, I believe another significant problem with perspective is that, to ground level observations, the landscape appears relatively flat when it is often not, being cut by any number of gullies, small ridges and other obstacles. For that reason I don't buy into the arguments along the lines of "Custer would have gone this way rather than that, because this is an easier route". The problem, to my way of thinking, is that Custer didn't necessarily know that, having never ridden the ground, and had to rely upon appearances, which, as I indicated, can be deceptive. I imagine that even his scouts, while they may have known the larger area in general, were not familiar enough with the specifics of a particular, small area to be able to provide much insight in that regard, even if there had been time to consult them on every move, which I doubt there was.
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 13, 2013 9:51:12 GMT -6
I think we are doing our same ride this year of where Custer went as close to the NPS boundary as we can. So I will look into that further. That being said I believe bc brought this up earlier so if it is right I will give him credit and if not I am on my own.
I believe it you follow the road which was placed there for easier construction and stick close to it you will find it follows the terrain features which are best for horse movements also. If not you would be on Benteen's Scout terrain going up and down all the time. The cavalry may not be on top the ridges but paralleling them horseback seems to me to be easier to move large numbers of horses.
I believe the terrain features lead you to BR horseback if you are not wanting to go directly in to the village down any of the drainages. To me that explains why Custer moved further away from the village just not why he thought he needed to go there. To skirt that big bowl and avoid crossing ridges at right angles seems the thing to do for me.
Off to Phoenix for SME meeting regarding training for our officers in the upcoming year.
Regards
AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 13, 2013 9:55:03 GMT -6
AZ, You are of course correct about the bicycles not being a fighting vehicle. I just threw that in there as a tongue in cheek comment to lighten the mood. AK, I believe another significant problem with perspective is that, to ground level observations, the landscape appears relatively flat when it is often not, being cut by any number of gullies, small ridges and other obstacles. For that reason I don't buy into the arguments along the lines of "Custer would have gone this way rather than that, because this is an easier route". The problem, to my way of thinking, is that Custer didn't necessarily know that, having never ridden the ground, and had to rely upon appearances, which, as I indicated, can be deceptive. I imagine that even his scouts, while they may have known the larger area in general, were not familiar enough with the specifics of a particular, small area to be able to provide much insight in that regard, even if there had been time to consult them on every move, which I doubt there was. gatewood I took it that way also but realize that others reading this may not. My sense of humor envisioned a rapid downhill movement by bicycle into the river. Regards AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 13, 2013 10:22:02 GMT -6
Wild do you use that Latin phrase, associated with facism, before or after you steal children's lunch money?
|
|
|
Post by wild on Jan 13, 2013 11:03:11 GMT -6
One must not forget the role played by the humble bicycle at Dien bien phu.It out performed the French US backed air supply command.
Facism is not noted for free speech ;intimidation and bullyboy tactics being the modus operandi.
|
|
|
Post by montrose on Jan 13, 2013 12:34:05 GMT -6
I started out serving with mechanized forces. My ability in terrain appreciation improved dramatically when I changed to Special Forces.
Dismounts and animals have to worry about energy management. Changing pace, or accordian stop/start movement is very wearying.
Remember when Benteen was leading his column, by about 300 meters. That is a smart leader. He is out front guiding the column toward its target. The column is far enough behind to make microadjustments based on terrain, avoid that rock formation, pick an easier slope here, find a straighter route there.
I also believe the officers were not fooled by the terrain east of the river. It's pretty nasty. It is not just that the terrain will slow you down, but the added fatigue to horses and men.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 13, 2013 13:34:51 GMT -6
Wild: You may speak as freely as you like. Please do.
I do not intimidate,I do not bully. What I do is call out a person who deliberately deceives for their own purposes, and place them in the catagory of humanity that applies. Deliberate deception is a form of lying, it is a form of cheating, it is a form of stealing. You deliberately deceived.
|
|
|
Post by wild on Jan 13, 2013 13:51:30 GMT -6
You deliberately deceived. At least present the case.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 13, 2013 14:18:49 GMT -6
Don't have to, Ask DC who attacked him needlessly last year - me. Why, to defend you. On what basis. Because I thought he was being unnessessarily cruel to you and without cause. You knew the cause but still pretended to me, and others as well, that you were being picked on by the big bad bully from Boulder. Had you told the truth it would have stopped. But you could not let the opportunity pass to both play the victim and stick a finger in DC's eye at the same time. You decieved, and you also know there are others here beside DC and myself who know what you did. Don't you dare play the innocent victim with me. You know what you did and the circumstances that surrounded it. You used me for your own purpose. I was stupid enough to fall for your manipulation. I take the lion's share of blame, but you skulk in a corner and accept no responsability for your actions. Character matters. You have none.
|
|
|
Post by wild on Jan 13, 2013 16:58:57 GMT -6
It is not my intention to torment an old soldier. What he has posted would not make in onto the girls' bus.I'm not going to reply to it. However if any of you guys consider that what he posted is proof of deception I will defend myself.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Jan 13, 2013 17:19:29 GMT -6
Let's not forget here that Custer had a mission. He assigned missions to both Reno and Benteen, but as part of the entire operation, he had an equal responsibility to fulfill his part of the overall mission. Everyone seems to forget that... certainly on other boards.
Terry assigned a mission to Custer and Custer likewise assigned missions to his officers. That does not relieve him of his own job. There are many facets to what he needed to do; speed being one of them, and the farther he went, the more important that element became. Terrain became secondary... just an obstacle to overcome once he had made the commitment.
Custer made three fatal mistakes, each one exacerbating the previous. Terrain selection was not among them. You take what you are handed and you deal with it. The awful terrain could have been overcome had the other errors been eliminated or mitigated.
Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 13, 2013 17:24:49 GMT -6
You may think this unworthy and I am not surprised because you are devoid of honor.
The day you can torment me is the day hell freezes over.
Would you really like these people to look back over your endless beef with DC and see who has more validity here? Would you really? You need not defend yourself, because the record speaks for itself. Anyone interested in who is lying need only look at the totality of it. I told you what I was going to do if your persisted., lay your lack of character out for all to see. You persisted. I laid it out.
I will now tell you what I intend to do with you in the future, what I do to anyone I thought a friend in difficulty, who turned and betrays. I will give you less priority than a spec of dog feces that may happen upon my shoe from time to time.
You once made the remark on this very board that I was your only friend here. Your words not mine and it's still up. Well if that is true your numbers have just sunk to zero. And all that was required was and adjustment in attitude, and a modification in the manner you behave here, not an unsought after apology, and you could not do it. You are indeed the drunk at the bar, intoxicated by your own bitterness.
|
|
|
Post by wild on Jan 13, 2013 18:20:41 GMT -6
Your position on DC was freely taken by you when you took DC to task over his insulting of Ian.I had neither hand act or part in influencing you on this stance. My disagreements with DC goes back 8 years to a now defunct board and the pros and cons were well known and published;I hid nothing even offering to leave the board if people had taken offence. I have a pm from you dated the 16th july 2012;it is friendly. What caused the seismic shift in attitude over the last 6 months? Disagreements on tactics and Benteen?Practically every post from you was personally abusive and the last card you could play was to recycle DC's insults. I have a pm from you.There is one line in it in relation to DC.I want your permission to publish it but I must warn you that it will destroy your case and your reputation .
|
|
|
Post by wild on Jan 13, 2013 18:35:50 GMT -6
PS I could actually send you the post and you can publish it yourself
|
|
|
Post by montrose on Jan 13, 2013 18:41:14 GMT -6
Fred,
I agree that terrain analysis did not cause LTC Custer's defeat. He made a series of decisions that scattered his units far out of supporting range of each other.
One interesting argument is that if the Benteen Bn had ignored both their linkup with Reno and the written orders from LTC Custer to escort the pack train, this Bn would have made a difference.
If this is true, then the battle could have been won if the Yates Bn had stayed with the Keough Bn.
It is just interesting that people who favor Custer apply one set of rules for Reno/Benteen/McDougall; and ignore those same rules as applied to Custer/Keough.
|
|