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Post by herosrest on Dec 27, 2012 18:26:23 GMT -6
Custer (George) was given to be a practiced shot, and five out of five would indicate a cool nerve. Sitting Bull did stste another time that Custer died smiling.... l simply believe the guy over compensated his fear. There is still a story to tell, when l feel that my ability equals this ~ www.pacificwrecks.com/reviews/nanette.html then the keyboard shall click earnestly. How is Oklahomah? P-39 on your six. Be well. www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/p-39/nanette.html
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Post by herosrest on Dec 27, 2012 23:22:17 GMT -6
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 28, 2012 5:27:02 GMT -6
HS you made a statement that an affidavit was taken of Indians in 1919 so lets see it. Instead what we get is you filling the pages in between so that is large gaps between these statements you make. You stated Miles investigated the battlefield. That he was there is not disbuted but some of his conclusions are not worthy of being called an investigation. He states that from Reno's valley location that Custer's fight was in plain sight. Fact or fiction? He states that if Reno remained there rifle shots from both positions would cross each other and that an enemy between the two commands would be under fire from both. So first Miles tells us that from Reno's position it is two miles from Custer's position. Next he tells us that Custer would be in plain view from Reno's position. Finally he states that any enemy between the two commands would take fire from both positions. His interview with the Indians states that if Reno with 3 Cos. would have remained in position they would have fled. Yet when Custer arrived with 5 Cos they did not. Did the run from Crook? Seems to me that Miles did not conduct a fact finding investigation. If one reads his kick the dead lion comment that is all you need to know about where he was coming from. Does anyone believe that from Reno's Valley position that Custer was in plain sight? Does anyone believe that from Reno's valley position that the Indians would take fire from both Custer and Reno at the same time? So according to Miles overlapping fields of fire from two miles apart he would conclude that from Weir Peaks that Reno would have been in supportive position for Custer. Did he do that? Seems to me that Weir is in a much better position to accomplish all the support elements that Miles concluded would be available from Reno's Valley position. Does Weir increase "plain view" over Reno's Valley position? Is the Weir position an improvement over Miles statements regarding firing from both positons? That he expected someone to read that and take it as truth amazes me. He would have been better arguing that Reno would have kept some Indians in contact if he remained in position. AZ Ranger Attachments:
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Post by herosrest on Dec 28, 2012 9:04:52 GMT -6
I agree with criticisms of the technical and tactical assessments you make. Even 'Long Toms' putting rounds out a mile would be elevated to 45% if the bullet could make it. Miles did gain the first overall idea of movement against Custer and dismiss the attack at fords down river nearer LSH. No mention of anthing further down river. As I have pointed up, this idea did not develop until the 1950‘.
Miles defended Custer but he did not go overboard with it, and offered limited criticisms. Miles interviewed Curly at leisure aboard the river boat Batchelor and offered that the scout had little information to offer. An opinion that persists today in some camps.
In regards the affadavit, the interviews are the affadavit witnessed and sworn. The accounts by scouts are no more or less confusing than the officer's recollections of events let alone some of the stuff subsequently jumbled together in research.
I agree with your views on Reno who could have better managed the problems at his end, but the retreat was not managed because there were and are ways to do it, which he knew and understood, or should have. Miles was pro Custer and the argument and recriminations had developed some by 1878 and in fact the letter from Whittaker to Corliss was stoking it all up again and led to Reno's request for the Inquiry which took place. Corliss pressed for a full Senate investigation of Benteen and Reno and this was initially agreed as neccesary. It being election year, Reno's request for an inquiry into his own conduct suited many and was allowed, which forestalled the move for the Senate investigation of the officers.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 28, 2012 9:17:02 GMT -6
AZR
The Keogh marker or tribute or monument in Huffman attributed pictures, given today as being taken in 1879 show Cpl. Wild's headboard being placed on his marker pole. That took place in 1877, which is one of the points behind the Cherokee Advocate news article. The Keogh and Wild and Crittenden marker boards date to 1877 by the news article, which conveys useful information about the 1877 battleground.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 28, 2012 9:29:17 GMT -6
AZR
The Keogh marker or tribute or monument in Huffman attributed pictures, given today as being taken in 1879 show Cpl. Wild's headboard being placed on his marker pole. That took place in 1877, which is one of the points behind the Cherokee Advocate news article. The Keogh and Wild and Crittenden marker boards date to 1877 by the news article, which conveys useful information about the 1877 battleground.
Because the Cherokee Advocate article of September 1877 validates the Wild headboard to 1877, Hanson's info in Conquest of the Missouri, about the 1877 expeditiin to the battleground is interesting for ststing that a monument was constructed, and Keogh's boot was recovered, or at least identified positively, in 1877.
My point...... there is some confusion surrounding monuments, and it did not begin recentky. It dates to...... 1877 and continues since then and includes Cheyenne memories of monuments and cemetaries.
So, was a photographer present during the period when M.V. Sheridan and James A. Nowlan attened the battleground and recovered officers remains during early July 1877.
It seems that this was the case as one journeyed there with P.W. Norris
P.H. Sheridan attended the battleground shortly after his brother and banned photographer. The Cherokee Observer in September 1877, was critical of these officers efforts to secure the battleground.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 22, 2021 2:15:45 GMT -6
I hope that all is well.
As you gave, no one knew who Custer was among the opposition during the fighting and a handful afterwards may have surmised Leander by aquintance. The brave fight story struck me as either or, Sitting Bull or his interpretter attempting some romance for the White Man to tell, or the recanting of tales of a particular fight and fighter. TWC was notably mangled as also Calhoun, and Yates. It is may be that they fought to the end, as those through thousands of years of warfare have. We will all die and I hope that I can face my end bravely whether afforded dignity or not.
Sitting Bull heard many stories. He may have told them also. We all do. I believe that his interview by Edgerley, was truthful.
Regards.
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 22, 2021 15:21:54 GMT -6
While no Indian knew who was attacking them many recognized after the battle some of the soldiers and scouts.
Isiah Dorman was well-known among the Sioux. He even had a Sioux wife. He was brutally mutilated after the battle because he was a traitor to the Sioux.
Tom Custer was given a "special" treatment by the Indians. Some say it was because of his treatment of Cheyenne woman on the reservation.
Mitch Boyer was also well known among a number of the Indians. It was said he was found mortally wounded by some Indians and asked to be killed quickly to stop his suffering. The Indians gladly did as he requested.
The story of GAC being recognized may have some truth to it. It was said Cheyenne woman found him and punctured his ear drums with sewing awls so he could hear better in the afterlife because he didn't listen to the Cheyenne who told him not to attack them. In addition there is the story of his involvement with a Cheyenne woman who upset many of the Indians.
Bloody Knife, Custer's favorite scout was recognized by the Sioux after the battle. He grew up has a mixed-blood Indian (Arikara/Sioux) and was mercilessly teased by the Sioux. He was supposedly found by some Indian woman who cut off his head and carried it around the village by his braids!
There was a lot of "mingling" between Indians and soldiers, especially Reservation Indians who had dealt with the Custers & their scouts, traders like Fred Girard who was said to have a bounty on his head from Sitting Bull.
The Indians may not have known who the attacking army was but once the battle was over they recognized a number of the dead who fought for the military.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 25, 2021 9:42:44 GMT -6
I'm certain it was known that Custer was out from Ft. Lincoln. As you say many present had seen him or knew of him as the mingled. If Two Moons is accepted, then he set a guard over the body which is one of those things we'll never decide for sure. TM was though involved in a count of the soldier dead which pair of acts hold some credance. There was no mass media and they knew what they knew and didn't know and always, always, told what they felt they needed to.
If we take Custer's wounds backwards, so to speak and in broader terms than a couple of neat bullet holes, then..... by some accounts there were two chest wounds. The thigh was slashed and an arrow inserted between the legs. This was glossed over for the sake of family and was not unique to Custer with more than two dozen widows and their orphans resulting from the fatalities.
So Custer was shot in the head per White history. Per Cheyenne history a nitting awl was used to pierce the 'ears' and scramble the brain. Pretty much a small calibre type gunshot wound to head if you think about it. So, there ya go.... no one knows because there was intentional misinformation and misdirection from get go.
'Ah, Mrs. Custer; we think that George was quite badly wounded and found by the very angry women folk of killed and wounded hostiles. They stuck nitting needles through his ears and wiggled them around. He probably felt very little after the first five minutes. Rotten luck, i'm afraid.'
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Post by herosrest on Apr 25, 2021 10:10:27 GMT -6
There is interesting current and ongoing research into Mitch Bouyer which has shown........ well, Check it out. Basically, the skull fragment identification at marker 33/34 I think it is, is not Bouyer. The odds are 1 in 220 or so. Will the Real Mitch Bouyer Please Stand Up.pdf (172.03 KB) This is an ongoing matter, as mentioned in the linked discussion. The picture given to be Bouyer traces back to Brininstool and is obviously falsly presented. From the Heart.... Joe Medicine Crow, quote 'Thomas Asa Laforge was an educated half-blood Crow. He was good on Crow history since the establishment of the reservation. He received much information from his father, Thomas H. Laforge, the White Crow Indian of the book by Thomas B. Marquis. Incidentally, I knew Thomas H. Laforge quite well, as he lived with his daughter Mary Little Neest during his last years. Mr. Little Nest was the brother of my grandfather Medicine Crow. Medicine Crow's parents seperated while he was a small boy. His mother, One Buffalo Calf, marries Sees the Living Bull, a noted medicine man. From this marriage Medicine Crow had one half brother named Little nest and three half sisters, The Other Beaver, Beaver Place Well-known etc..... etc....
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Post by aberdeen on Jul 25, 2021 17:10:58 GMT -6
Another unsupported theory is that two attempts were made to cross the river, both unsuccessful.
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Post by herosrest on Aug 2, 2021 6:58:09 GMT -6
There definately were three river crossings by 7th Cavalry and no doubt what ever so, at all, at all, about them. One was unopposed and took the Indians by surprise. The second became a confused mess suffering casualties in the water, the third was completely wiped out. This is long known. A fourth crossing involved 7th Cavalry scouts who then made a stand on the east bank and held off the Dakotah's until able to rejoin the regiment on the bluffs.
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Post by dogface1949 on Apr 12, 2023 12:56:36 GMT -6
Curly always maintained that, “I did nothing great”, and he also said, “I have always told the same story”, and I have no doubt of this. What I believe happened in some cases that really mixed up Curly’s story is that those interviewing him took license and embellished what he told them to make it more incredible. It is also probable that over the years Curly added incidents to his original narrative as things came to mind. I think we all do that, recall things after we have told of an event that occurred to us. I seriously doubt that any of us have had such an experience as Curly had at the age of 17 during a three day period of June 25, 26, 27 and events beyond those three days all the way to the day he walked into his village to the surprise of everyone seeing that the other three Crow scouts had declared him dead. This is how I believe things played out after Custer left ‘the bend’ in Cedar Coulee. Returning from Weir Point Custer sent the three Crows to the rear for safety. Curley was not present at the time, and the three Crows thought Curley had been killed in the Reno action and told his kin that when they got back to the Crow village. Boston Custer passed by Benteen on his way to join his brother and he met Trmp Martin as Martin was exiting out of Cedar Coulee and told him that Custer was down in Cedar Coulee, and Boston continued down Cedar Coulee. Custer and his five companies had exited out of mouth of Cedar Coulee when Boston caught up with his brother. There was a very brief halt and Boston gave him the very good news that Benteen was 20 minutes behind him, and Custer headed down MTC at a gallop. Meanwhile, Boyer and Curley were up on Weir’s Peak where Custer sent them to keep an eye on Reno’s progress and report to him anything important. From Weir’s Peak they had a very clear view of Reno below them, and a clear view of Custer behind them. They could observe both parties. When they saw Reno retreat into the Cottonwood grove and then exit it they had to report this to Custer. Mitch and Curley could see Custer at a gallop down MTC and they left Weir’s Peak and went down the west ridge of Weir’s Coulee and intersected Custer about 600 yards west of the mouth of Cedar Coulee and gave him the very bad news of Reno’s defeat. A very brief halt occurred here while Custer devised what action to take in order to relieve Reno. Custer sent Capt Yates with two companies down MTC to within 120 yards of the river where he crossed over the mouth of Deep Coulee and ascended the west ridge to rejoin Custer at Calhoun Hill. Custer had remained for a while on Luce Ridge in plain view of Benteen that he thought would shortly be coming down Cedar Coulee. From Luce Ridge Custer could observe the progress of Yate’s feint to draw the warriors away from Reno, which plan worked, and could observe Benteen when he came out of Cedar Coulee, but Benteen never showed and Custer then moved to Neigh-Cartwright Ridge to cover Yates below him. Seeing Yates start up the west ridge of Deep Coulee Custer then moved to Calhoun Hill where Yates rejoined the rest of the battalion. It was from this point that Curley left Custer. He had seen some action as Yates ascended the ridge under fire from the Sioux and it was probably in the vicinity of Findley Ridge that Mitch was probably wounded and lost his horse. Mitch Boyer’s body was never found most likely due to the Sioux chopping him up into pieces. A small fragment of Mitch’s facial bone was found in the middle of the south skirmish line about 100 yards from LSH. Curley rode down into Deep Coulee and headed up it all the way, past Godfrey Spring on his right, and to the end of it and up the ravine to the top of the bluff when he took up an observation position on a knoll about a mile and a half from LSH, and it was from that position that Curley saw the last of the Custer fight, realizing they were doomed he rode out to find Gen. Terry and report what he had seen. He rode back to just beyond the Custer Creek and Ash Creek divide, stopping there for the night of the 25th. The next day, the 26th he continued on another 40 miles To Tullock’s Fork and camped for the night at the mouth of the Big Horn, where he killed a buffalo and roasted some of it and eating his first meal since leaving Custer’s battalion. Having reached the Yellowstone he saw soldiers camped across the river at Pease Bottom. Tom LeForge said that on the morning of the 27 th he was rambling along the river when he saw 17 year old Crow scout Curley on the other side cooking breakfast and sign-talked with him. Curley asked the whereabouts of Gen. Gibbons and LeForge indicated to him by sign-talk that Gen. Gibbons had gone on up the Big Horn and with that Curley mounted and rode off in that direction giving no intimation of a big fight and Curley told him later that he was so sleepy and thinking that everybody already knew about it. I post two Google Earth photos, one showing the routes taken by Curly and Boyer, the route taken by Custer up to Luce Ridge, N-C Ridge, and over to Calhoun Hill, and the route taken by Yates and his two companies down MTC, crossing over Deep Coulee stream and back up the west ridge of Deep Coulee to rejoin Custer. The second photo traces the route of Curly after leaving Calhoun Hill all the way up to the bluff about 1.5 miles away and to the knoll where he watched enough of the end of the Custer fight to know they were doomed and then headed out to report to Gen. Yates. Attachments:
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Post by noggy on Apr 14, 2023 0:35:31 GMT -6
I post two Google Earth photos, one showing the routes taken by Curly and Boyer, the route taken by Custer up to Luce Ridge, N-C Ridge, and over to Calhoun Hill, and the route taken by Yates and his two companies down MTC, crossing over Deep Coulee stream and back up the west ridge of Deep Coulee to rejoin Custer. The second photo traces the route of Curly after leaving Calhoun Hill all the way up to the bluff about 1.5 miles away and to the knoll where he watched enough of the end of the Custer fight to know they were doomed and then headed out to report to Gen. Yates. Great stuff. I'm really not good at reading google maps. From Curley's knoll, is there a straight view to LSH? All the best, Noggy
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Post by shan on Apr 16, 2023 4:25:07 GMT -6
rosebud,
Rosebud, I think that's an execellent summery of the way that constant mis-interpretations can often end up becoming facts. I suppose the cynic might say that the whole debate about what happened on that day is constructed on such weak foundations. However I'll take the middle road and say that I think we can be sure of a number things, not many, but just about enough to get a broad, if rather fuzzy picture of how things unfolded.
However, and yes, I have a few howevers, there's no reason why any of the many soldiers who may or may not have seen Boston ride past Benteen would have mentioned it, prime amongst them being that they were never asked. Apart from the fact that a certain kind of class snobbery which meant that people were only interested in what the officers thought and had to say was worth listening to,I think there was a general assumption that the ordinary soldier was almost certainly uneducated and thus fairly inarticulate. By the way, this applies in Europe as well as in the States, in which case, no one thought to seek them out and ask them what happened to them and what they saw.
But I think my second however is even more pertinent. Most of the issues we like to dabate have only arisen during the last hundred years or so. No one was interested in such fine detail during the years following the battle, so these little incidents which are happening off stage, small details which are of such interest to us were of no great matter to them. Another thing we need to remember, most of these men were scattered across the country during the following years, some dying, some leaving the army ect, so there was probably little chance of the press finding them, or of them getting together to talk about old times.
I don't know whether Martin was coaxed by Camp into saying that yes, maybe he did see Boston after all, or whether he just said that to please him ~ something we all do from time to time, we'll never know now, and in the grand scheme of things, it hardly matters.
Shan
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