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Post by quincannon on Aug 25, 2012 21:02:13 GMT -6
So what you propose is a reconnaissance in force, not quite but close enough.
Your objective is to draw the warriors out of the village, and do a variation I suspect of Rommel's PAK Front, where his tanks move to the flanks and he draws the opposition onto his guns. Is that fairly close making the obvious substitutions?
Well at this point you do not know how far the first circle is from Ford A. What if it's only half a mile? That leaves you scant room to maneuver. You are also depending upon the arrival of Benteen in time to fit your advance and withdraw scenario.
This one is going to take a bit of thinking.
I think drawing the hostiles out and some distance, not to far, from the village is a good idea. If you can hold them in a prolonged firefight you're going to do them a lot of damage, that is if your guys can shoot. How you draw them out is the question.
I envision in my plan the scout/screening force doing that. Just get to be seen, enough to stir it up and bring them out. Do some fixing and then bring up the big boys IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS, dismount and have a long knock down drag out with them. Meanwhile the wives and little kiddies will be making an exit. Somebody is going to break. If it's you, you have sufficient forces and organization to conduct an orderly withdrawl to Ford A. If it's them you mount and go after them. They will want to catch up with and protect the families. You just want to kill as many as you can before the achieve a break in contact. They will. You can't stop it. but you sure as hell can hurt them. You have the command and control assets to conduct such an operation. They do not.
Larry: I don't know how this will all turn out. Everyone has contributed something valuable so far. Regardless of what collective solution the rock drill reaches, I believe the one imperative is to get inside the hostiles heads. Make them think there is no tomorrow. Make them think they are about to die. More importantly make them think their families are going to die, every damned one of them. Make them think their way of life ends today. When you do that they make forced errors. This is not a sporting contest. The only rule that applies is there are no rules. You must ruthlessly kill the ones you can, for in so doing you will bring this thing to as fast and end as possible, and in the end save more lives than are lost, on both sides.
I think Dan was about to propose not fighting but rather use operational maneuver to win the day. That is a noble endeavor, and I would not be opposed to it. I just don't think you have the tools at hand to do it. It takes a superior level of mobility to pull it off. You don't have it. You do not even have mobility parity. Therefore a series of smallish battles leading to the ultimate dead end is the only way I see here. Wish it were not so.
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Post by lew on Aug 25, 2012 21:34:04 GMT -6
Chuck, I believe I'm in line with your way of thinking. Let me think it all over a bit. Larry
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Post by wild on Aug 26, 2012 2:21:28 GMT -6
Everyone has contributed something valuable so far. Well one person has. Ever been at a conference and you feel out of your depth thinking everyone else is on top of the subject and then you see the little guy at the back raise his hand and ask in a timid fearful voice I don't understand could you please state the objective and you say thank God. This battle was lost when blue force commander assumed everyone knew the objective. Another Colonel suggested 2 dozen seperate but simultaneous actions---I feel a head ache coming on. Look can anyone tell me the keeper of the honey bucket where the hell ford A is.Did Custer know it was ford A?
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 26, 2012 7:34:59 GMT -6
I think we are forgetting one thing, did Custer think that the Indians would flee once they were attacked? If so I have gone into this scenario with this in my mind, just to keep it real.
I also made my attack on this assumption, it sounds reckless driving into a village with eight Companies of Cavalry with only Carbines and Pistols, but these are the tools I have and at the end of the day I am acting like a soldier if Custer expected Reno to attack the village then I would expect to do the same.
I had a second option; If the village is too big to hit with the force at my disposal, then I will try and immobilise it until Terry arrives, the only way I can do this is to take away their mobility (the horse herd), if I can achieve this and keep my command intact and in a good position with fields of fire plus water, then I can decide on any other options that may develop later.
Another thing I would do to amend my plan is to send for McDougal and his Company, along with the ammo packs, this will save Benteen time, as I will send for him and his Battalion to come straight to me, the pack train will still have over 90 men left (if my totals for Trooper Packers are correct).
Richard, I have based my scenario on the fact that no map features are named and at the Beginning I am totally blind to what is ahead of me, that’s why I have made a total balls of it so far.
Neil Armstrong RIP
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 26, 2012 8:20:26 GMT -6
Ian: Custer is not the commander. You are. If you have a preconceived notion that the indians will run then you have it. If you don't you don't
If anyone has a better way of refering to terrain features such as Ford A other then with their modern names, and without having access to a military map and eight digit grid coordinates, I am sure Will would love to hear it.
This is a game folks. For the purposes of this game you are the commander, you call all the shots. What some historical character called something or thought about something is immaterial. The only thing material is the scenario which Will has placed before us, and for which we playing the part of the commander will offer possible solutions. At the end of the day, you will see how all these divergent opinions come together in one consolidated solution to the problem at hand. We have seen a coming together already. Remember when this is done in real life it is a planning tool for looking at all the options to a given tactical problem and then finding the best one. You may not agree with the end product, but just keep in mind it is a mental exercise where history is only a vehicle.
Richard: All battle is a series of simultanious actions that are orchestrated. The orchestration is the job of the commander. In this scenario that's you. If you don't have enough information, tell us how you intend to get it. Once the scenario start point is set in stone what has already happened has happened. You may go back and change or ammend the results of what happened. Recalling Benteen is one such possible change or ammendment. What you can't do is say I would not cross the Divide, I would not send Benteen, I would not have droped the box of rations from the mule. I would not have left Fort Lincoln. All those things have happened at the point of the scenarios departure. Will has already said you will have to deal with the unintended consequence of previous actions, as you take over and go forward.
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Post by montrose on Aug 26, 2012 9:08:01 GMT -6
Okay. Let's move forward one tactical bound.
Blue is now at Ford A. Red still has not reacted,and majority of Red forces do not know of the imminent battle.
What does Blue learn now? Village is at least a mile downstream of Ford A. There are no enemy forces upstream. There are no enemy forces defending the ford. The fleeing band in front of you is heading downstream at speed.
Stragglers are showing up. The boy Deeds died in this area, at about this time.
There is heavy dust down the valley on the west , from the main pony herds.
Now to get ahead of myself. The reports that the Indians were advancing on blue will be coming in soon. Reno had crossed the Ford, reassembled, and advanced downstream some distance before this report arrived. I am assuming at least 20 minutes. For this exercise, you can consider signs of enemy response as you get closer to the village.
Now take your plan and advance to contact.
If you did not send a patrol up the bluffs, then there is no 3411 siting. From the valley floor you will be seeing more and more warriors, and just a fringe of lodges in the trees.
For terrain, you can now see the width of the valley.You can also see the terrain east of the river is unsuitable for a village, village is likely west of the river, at least for the next few miles. This is due to narrow space between river and bluffs, and eventually you will see the bluffs end, vicinity Ford B.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 26, 2012 9:33:10 GMT -6
You can also see that for anyone on the bluffs east of the river, making a crossing isn't possible for a long ways north, which is something nobody grants Reno factoring in why Custer hasn't appeared and Reno's forthcoming decisions.
It's easy to oversimplify, and we all do it, but just as we incorrectly use downriver and 'north' interchangeably, we tend to visualize the east bank as near flush to the bluffs till MTC. There were lodges on the east bank, an arguably small village, beneath the bluffs, according to some, but there was space for such and there is open space pretty much all along the river on both sides varying greatly in width.
If I'm at Ford A with 8 companies, I'd query the scouts as to the east bank's characteristics for a few miles. Is it an easy exit for the village if we attack from the south? Could there be more camp circles on the east? I'd also be annoyed I hadn't sent the scouts to the high ground with a set of visual signals to indicate up to three possibilities. No east bank village. Good/badland. Accelerate everyone south with all the speed god gave you/attack west bank villages now.
Once decisions are made, inform Benteen and train with two separate messengers.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 26, 2012 9:33:16 GMT -6
Will: It seems I was the one ahead of myself.
My actions and orders are unchanged from Reply #59 and are not repeated here.
It seems we have already divided into two schools of thought, attack the village or draw out the hostiles. There may be more. I just want to take a moment though to lay out why I favor drawing them out. Everyone agrees there is an absence of information. It is highly unlikely that information can be obtained short of a prolonged delay while patrols are sent out to obtain it. Those patrols would have to cover many miles forward of the exercise start position, travel undetected and return. It would take hours. Meanwhile the regiment is sitting 1.5 miles from Ford A and its presence is likely to be detected at any time. So time is the main factor. Therefore with the only knowledge concerning possible size I have being the trail, a very imprecise unit of measure, I feel the best way of knowing what I am up against is drawing the hostiles away onto some ground where they must reveal themselves to me. As for knowledge of the nature of the terrain, I must see what I will see as I go forward. I have adopted a flexible formation. I have by positioning my trains provided both a rally point and a fairly close point of resupply. I have provided for a reserve (Benteen). Keeping prudent speed uppermost I have done what I can do as far as adapting to changing terrain. My command group is well positioned so that I may issue frag orders to change what needs to be changed.
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Post by rosebud on Aug 26, 2012 11:07:42 GMT -6
Didn't Bradley draw them out? Didn't Crook draw them out? This plays right into the hands of the Indians. Didn't Reno draw them out? Drawing them out gives the village time to escape and it fixes the soldiers and not the Indians. To me this would leave an easy victory for the Indians. Few lives lost and a village saved. The Indians don't need to fight soldiers to win, they only need to keep the soldiers at bay. Drawing them out would be just right for the Indians.
Interesting concept though.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 26, 2012 12:42:50 GMT -6
Justin, we can see that this was a job for a full Brigade; one under strength Regiment with four Companies out of the battle will stand no chance if all the warriors come out and take the battle to you. They will keep you at a distance while all the non-coms escape or even try to out flank, infiltrate and cut you off from you lines of retreat.
Chuck, I am just trying to see things through the eyes of a commander from 1876, I have no Sabres, only Carbines and Pistols, I am here to do a job, I see a large village, the biggest village I have ever seen, the warriors in the village have spotted me, I realise that Capt Benteen is on a scout, another full Company plus another 90+ men are miles behind with the pack train, that leaves me with eight Companies and three options, Attack, Stand or get the hell out of there.
Now I will keep monitoring Williams reports over what is happening, we are up to the part where I am advancing from the ford towards the village. William it’s over to you.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 26, 2012 13:21:24 GMT -6
Just why are both of you concerned about the families escaping. Personelly I don't give a damn. The warriors are the center of gravity. They are the ones who must be defeated. Defeat them and their whole system comes apart, and you accomplish the operational objective, returning or introducing them to the reservation. You are all thinking like Custer and the rest. Think of the operational imperatives and then think about how to go about accomplishing them
If I had superior mobility, I would not fight at all. I would do what I think Dan is suggesting and just out maneuver them to the point where they had no choice. I don't have that superiority of mobility, therefore it must be a series of short violent actions, with the ultimate aim of reducing the power of the warrior bands to impotence. Easy to say. Hard to do, but it can be done. If anyone goes into this exercise thinking it will end with one decisive engagement I believe them to be very incorrect.
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Post by benteen on Aug 26, 2012 13:33:57 GMT -6
Without knowing enemy location, strength,and actions: you don't know. As a commander you will have to determine victory conditions, and how you will employ forces to meet those conditions. Dan, at the decision point that starts this scenario, you are not constrained. . OK Colonel thank you for the clarification. Now to state again, as the blue commander I am under no orders, directions, or task , to attack this village. It is up to me to decide what I will do. There are commanders such as LTC GA Custer whos first option or action is to always attack. The more blood the better, the greater the victory. For blue commander Dan, it is my last option. With that being said this would be my course of action. I would send Varnum and scouts to Gen Terry and tell him what my plans were.I would have my entire regiment together and move forward on a wide front (As Colonel Q says to show strenght) at a walk. Not a cantor or trot, but a walk. When I reached a point 1/2 to 1 mile from the village(Whatever the terrain would allow) I would dismount my troops in plain view of the village.This would be to show non agression. I would then wait for the Indians to make the next move. My desire would be for them to break camp and move Northward. A village this size would have to follow a river for water for 10000 people and the ponies, That would be the Yellowstone. I would follow about a mile behind. With the Indians moving North and Terry heading South they should see each other in less than a day. My hope would be that when they saw the"Walk a heaps" and those with the long rifles (400 Infantry) 3 cavalry companies, 2 guns that go boom twice (Artillery) in front and my Regiment behind them, that they would realize the gig is up, its all over and surrender. I know they fought Crook with as many soldiers, but this is different. They took Crook by surprise and more important their families were in no danger. here they know a battle would cause the deaths of many of the women and children and hopefully would say "From where the sun now sets I will fight no more forever" Mission accomplished and no one, not my soldiers, not the women and children, not even a warrior had to die. Be Well Dan
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Post by rosebud on Aug 26, 2012 13:49:52 GMT -6
Just why are both of you concerned about the families escaping. Personelly I don't give a damn.
Yes, that has been obvious from the time you joined these boards. The history of around 1876 does not agree with your mindset. It was what it was. Sorry but you don't get to change history.
So far, you have never been able to show one bit of evidence to support your view.
No need to go over this again.
Rosebud
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Post by Gatewood on Aug 26, 2012 14:30:28 GMT -6
Dan,
I haven't joined in the discussion so far, but your latest post agrees fairly closely with what I have been thinking - make a demonstration of force in the valley in a methodical way, letting red see my poerfull, orderly, well controlled formations advancing down the valley. I think there would be an intimidation factor just in that. As a point of clarification, you (Dan) know that these same Indians engaged Crook a few days before, but you (blue commander) don't know that. You also don't know that red scouts have detected Gibbon and are watching and reporting on his movements, so I believe that, based upon what you know, you are correct in your assumption of the Indians moving down stream, although they are not likely to do so.
Now, assuming that you are blue commander and have implemented the tactics you describe, I will assume the role of red and respond. Furthermore, based on your deployment, I will assume the role of Gall, the chieftain of the nearest Hunkpapas, and assume that I can exercise a fair degree of command and control. Numerous Indians are entering my camp from the south with reports of a strong soldier presence in that direction. I yell for everyone around to follow me and ride out to see for myself. I see soldiers arrayed in several formations across the valley approaching at a methodical pace. I can see flags and guidons flying, officers and non-coms riding back and forth exercising control, and an occasional trumpet call. All-in-all a awe inspiring and intimidating sight. Furthermore, I believe these to be the same soldiers that were fought a few days previously and that have now regrouped and followed on, which is more intimidating as I am now thinking that they are going to keep coming, no matter what. I also know that there have been reports of other soldiers in the opposite direction a couple of days' march to the north, but am possibly not thinking of that right now. A number of the warriors with me start yelping and are ready to attack the soldiers. For the time being I am able to hold them in check, but it is doubtful for how long. I manage to send several back through the camp with instructions to warn all of the subsequent villages and tell them to get ready to break camp and move. However, in council with the other chiefs, we had decided that, if the soldiers come, we will first try to talk to them and see what occurs. Since I am the nearest Indian of import to the soldiers and there is not time to await the arrival of others, much less consult with them, I take it upon myself to attempt to talk to the soldiers and ride out by myself toward them, making signs of peace and parlay, and await their reaction.
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Post by benteen on Aug 26, 2012 15:29:01 GMT -6
However, in council with the other chiefs, we had decided that, if the soldiers come, we will first try to talk to them and see what occurs. Since I am the nearest Indian of import to the soldiers and there is not time to await the arrival of others, much less consult with them, I take it upon myself to attempt to talk to the soldiers and ride out by myself toward them, making signs of peace and parlay, and await their reaction. Gatewood, Your post is similar to mine, and I agree.I put this in brackets because there are some warrior accounts that they would have surrenderd, but I dont believe they would have done that under the circumstances that were present. But this is a new scenerio with a large force not showing agression. Perhaps they would have. If you were the red commander and offered to go back to the reservation, I would gladly accept. It would be beyond my wildest expectations. Even better than following them, with the same result. Mission accomplished, no one dies Be Well Dan
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