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Post by fred on Sept 1, 2012 11:12:32 GMT -6
Wounded Leg...? And by the way, this was an interesting thread.... Can you guys please get back to discussing it the way "Montrose" intended? The discussions between Ian, "Gatewood," DC, QC, "benteen," "lew," and maybe some others, were really good. All this side-bar digression crap is nothing but more petty bickering. If people want to bicker, go over to our neighbors' board. Quit f**king up a good thing. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by lew on Sept 1, 2012 13:28:18 GMT -6
Fred, I couldn't agree more. I quit posting on this thread after it went off track.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 1, 2012 13:45:42 GMT -6
I agree as well. While all of these type discusssions are interesting, cluttering this one serves only to distract. If someone wishes the C&C and other non exercise discussion to continue start another thread, and transfer what is here not pertaining to the exercise itself.
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Post by fred on Sept 1, 2012 13:46:11 GMT -6
Larry,
I saw that. And by the way, I modified my post to include your name. Sorry; just forgot, but you are certainly one of the really good contributors to that thread. I was delighted to see you up there. Good job my friend!
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by lew on Sept 1, 2012 14:07:45 GMT -6
Having decided to post one company at Ford A (to serve as a rally point and to guide Benteen and the Pack train) I proceed forward with 7 companies. I realize that the hostiles are starting to react to my presence, but it's too early to dismount,or fall back. I plan on making a quick strike at the village, using revolvers only. It will be a staggered assault. Four companies in the first wave,to be followed by the remaining three. As the final 3 companies attack,the first four will rally at the starting point,and if opposition is light, reload their revolvers. I'm buying time til the re enforcements come up. If opposition is heavy we fall back to Ford A. Hopefully with the intelligence gained I can make further plans.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 1, 2012 16:20:14 GMT -6
Larry: If you follow through with this plan, please consider the following factors that could impact on what you do. Let's say it's a given that you conduct your assualt in two, and possibly three waves, and the surprise you achieve initially starts to peter out to the point where the third wave (the ralleyed and reloaded first wave) may or may not conduct a third assault wave. It really does not matter I believe because any damage you might do will be somewhat mitigated by the hostiles now state of alert.
1) If you pull back, which is what I would expect you plan to do, to the vacinity of Ford A, do you plan to stay on the village side or go over and hedgehog on the other side of the river? What you will achieve by this move is bringing the hostiles out of the village, bringing them further away to engage you. I think they must engage in an attempt to pin you, so that you may not interfere with the village pack up and go. If they don't you are liable to come at them again from another direction for which they are unprepared.
2) If you stay on the village side of the river, what do you plan to do with Benteen and the packs once they arrive? Will you bring them over too? If so your regiment defends with a river at its back. If not your regiment is split by a river and your logistics is on the wrong side of the river from two thirds of the men who may need resupply. I knows it's a ford, but you need to consider this
3) If you are forced to remain on the defense, and any plans for another assault when the regiment is fully up falls in the slop bucket because of hostile counter moves are you sure the terrain around that ford is suitable for an extended all round defense? I would be particularly interested in how you view the high ground coming off the bluffs
4) If by further plans you mean go back at them again, any surprise you may have had is long fallen out of the bag, and the trick bag of surprise is now bare bones empty.
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Post by lew on Sept 1, 2012 17:24:15 GMT -6
Chuck, I plan to stay on the village side of the river. The high ground on the bluffs do not concern me, as I plan to move forward once the entire regiment is up. With luck I'll not have too many wounded at this point. Once the entire regiment is up, we move forward. If we can't move forward--then the jig is up and I must find defensive ground.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 1, 2012 17:51:29 GMT -6
Well maybe this thing is back on track and we can move forward. Hope so.
OK, so the river is at your back. Trains on the same side I trust.Do you intend to defend the ford or cover it in some way? Think that would be a good idea, but you don't have to occupy it, just make sure the other guys can't use it. Think I might have a look see for ground to defend before I was forced to. Don't let the other guys make your choices for you
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Post by lew on Sept 1, 2012 18:15:58 GMT -6
Chuck, Thanks for taking the time to review and comment on my plans. You are good at your craft! I plan to advance the entire regiment towards the village, unless I have received quite a few wounded. In that case I'll have to leave 1 company,along with the medical staff and wounded at Ford A--village side.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 1, 2012 18:51:44 GMT -6
Larry: You have a moral compact with your wounded. Make sure. If you catch them with their britches down on the first go, you should not sustain many casualties I would imagine.
Can you yet talk about formations and where you expect contact on the second go around?
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Post by montrose on Sept 1, 2012 19:09:10 GMT -6
Lew,
Your plan will run into trouble before it reaches the village. I assume you will use river to guard your right. 4 companies in your lead will leave left flank open. Red will flow around your open flank.
So you will have to commit reserve to left, or have to wait for reinforcements from the units you are outrunning. Youface a serious risk of enemy flowing around your exposed flank, and getting between you and your trail units. Notice this happened to Reno in the actual fight, hundreds of Indians got between him and Ford A.
I may address command and control in a new thread, I am gobsmacked at some of the posts I have seen. The Indians had C2, it was not efficient. The US system was better than the indig. Deal with it. The age of imperialism was driven by Western European culture and methods.
Okay, can I start next drill? I need help from Fred and DC. More to follow.
Respectfully,
William
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Post by fred on Sept 2, 2012 1:31:36 GMT -6
I need help from Fred and DC. I'm watching... just name it, Will. Hope you are doing OK, my friend. Your VM box was full when I called. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Sept 2, 2012 5:03:07 GMT -6
Colonel Richard: There is a quaint little notion called the chain of commmand. There is also a quaint little notion that one should not deliver lectures based on assumptions. I was not refering to Ney but Marshal Grouchy who in pursuit of the Prussians could not be recalled to assist Napoleon. A division of Napoleon's troops ineffectually marched and counter marched between Ligny and Quatre Bras because no system of comtrol existed other than a knotted chain of command' Another cherry;the Brit artillery at the Spion Kop greatly out numbering the Boer guns were render useless because their mirrors were ineffective. The Brits also contrived to have two commanding officers on the summit because of time lag in their "control" system. You mentioned bells, whistles and baloons as a means of battlefield communication,Well the din and smoke of battle would render your flags and rags rather pathetic, Regards
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Post by quincannon on Sept 2, 2012 14:04:12 GMT -6
And Richard you were not talking about Waterloo then you were talking the aftermath and pursuit after Quatre Bras. Related incidents, and a failure of command and control, but still not Waterloo although the failure to close and maintain contact did have an effect on Waterloo. Grouchy was given a mission and divorced from the main French Army, he failed. End of story.
Richard I am going to try to explain this just one more time:
Do you have an automobile? Assuming the answer is yes, does it from time to time break down, fail to start and the like? Does it from time to time run out of petrol at the worst possible time? Does it from time to time require you put it in the shop for a tune up? The answer to all these questions is yes it does and it is.
Now I am you next door neighbor. I say to you Richard do you have a car. Your answer is yes but it broke down up the road and I had to have it towed. I ask you again and your answer is yes but it ran out of fuel in town and I had to take a cab home because no gas stations were open that late at night. I ask you again and you say yes but it is in the shop for a tune up.
The next door neighbor then says to you Richard YOU DON'T HAVE A CAR.(That has been Richard's response throughout this debate). And Richard says yes I do and 99% of the time it works just fine, but you (the neighbor) are making your decisions based upon the exception not the rule. Think about it.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 2, 2012 14:40:18 GMT -6
Hey what’s the score here chaps, has this thread ended ?, I was just going to carry one with my plan, I was in the valley with Reno up front in skirmish, Yates was in the timber, and I had just checked the time on my ‘’Brand New Pocket Watch’’ when Benteen and his Battalion have come into view, he has made it just on time (not late), I was just looking at Reno to see if he was taking a touch from his hip flask (no he is sober) and I noticed a creek in front of the Village, this would be an ideal place for Reno to form a new defence line, maybe he can get there in one bound and take this feature, McDougall and Company B have also just arrived with the extra ammo. So what’s this rock drill 2.
Ian.
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