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Post by herosrest on Mar 24, 2015 14:18:13 GMT -6
Oh my, Oh my. Don't know if such a ford existed, but the river is crossable just about anyplace down there so ford or no what in the hell is the point? The thing that differentiates a ford from any place else along a river is access and egress. So Reno retreats (and in this case that would be the proper word) across this might be ford, and he finds himself exposed on a ledge along the river bank, with some very high bluffs behind him. He has just given up some cover in the timber and now his back is literally to the wall. Don't you and duck boy ever think bonehead? That's exactly what happened. He should have stayed but there was a ford. Scouts used it. The retreat did not cross at a ford....
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Post by quincannon on Mar 24, 2015 14:28:00 GMT -6
HR: I am fully aware of what transpired.
I am fully aware that Retreat Crossing is not a ford, not a really good place to cross, and a death trap to any crossing it in close contact. I am also very aware that the place Reno crossed was the only place available.
What I suggest that you do is read my second paragraph again, or as an alternative learn to read and comprehend the English language.
I take comfort in the fact that you will never lead soldiers of the United States, Canada, The United Kingdom, New Zealand, or Australia in battle.
Please I implore you. neither your or scarface ever quote me again, lest I mistake the respondent for someone important and with substance
I would also ask scarface to discover who placed those 1880 charges against Reno, whose daughter it was, who had lost a son at LBH, and who was Reno's commanding officer at the time. Reno's charges were thrown out at the Board of Military Review, primarily because there was undue command influence and conflict of interest. in placing those charges. His conviction was reversed, and he was buried as Steve said with full honors. Previously Mrs. Custer had single handedly prevented with her undue influence, those records being corrected and his burial with honors. If you have never been drunk, and accused of doing something stupid while drunk, cast all the stones you wish on him for this one act. If you have been drunk and done something stupid shut your frigging mouth for you have no standing.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 24, 2015 14:48:13 GMT -6
There was a ford in the timber, Kuhlman, Legend into History, 1948. Reno either didn't know of it or he hadn't learnt about it. Reno's men escaped in two different groups, scouts seperately as well, with over thirty people left behind. The first wave led by Reno, simply jumped off the river bank into the water at full gallop. I reckon they were going pretty quickly when they jumped into the water. thelbha.proboards.com/attachment/download/937
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Post by quincannon on Mar 24, 2015 14:53:17 GMT -6
HR: Did I not just tell you that I knew what transpired, as does everyone on this board with a brain to think and eyes to read.
You still don't understand that a ford in the timber if it is or was there, and I stipulate to the idea that there may have been, using it only gets Reno from the frying pan squarely into the fire. Crossing over, using this timber ford, puts him in an even bigger pickle than he is already in.
Please cleanse you mind of the idea that Indians require fords. Cavalry units do require fords to maintain cohesion and formation. Indians cross relatively shallow water any damned place they please, as they would have in this case to get both above and below Reno on that piece of bench land before he could move away.
So the changed situation had Reno used the "good ford" would be Indians and a river to his front. Indians to his north. Indians to his south. A three hundred foot bluff to his rear, with ammo fast running out.
Use your head man. Think like a rational human being and not a duck.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 24, 2015 14:55:33 GMT -6
HR: I am fully aware of what transpired. I am fully aware that Retreat Crossing is not a ford, not a really good place to cross, and a death trap to any crossing it in close contact. I am also very aware that the place Reno crossed was the only place available. What I suggest that you do is read my second paragraph again, or as an alternative learn to read and comprehend the English language. I take comfort in the fact that you will never lead soldiers of the United States, Canada, The United Kingdom, New Zealand, or Australia in battle. Please I implore you. neither your or scarface ever quote me again, lest I mistake the respondent for someone important and with substance I would also ask scarface to discover who placed those 1880 charges against Reno, whose daughter it was, who had lost a son at LBH, and who was Reno's commanding officer at the time. Reno's charges were thrown out at the Board of Military Review, primarily because there was undue command influence and conflict of interest. in placing those charges. His conviction was reversed, and he was buried as Steve said with full honors. Previously Mrs. Custer had single handedly prevented with her undue influence, those records being corrected and his burial with honors. If you have never been drunk, and accused of doing something stupid while drunk, cast all the stones you wish on him for this one act. If you have been drunk and done something stupid shut your frigging mouth for you have no standing. You are drifting into bad taste and away from the topic. Reno was repeatedly drunk and getting into trouble. In the end, they were sick and tired of him and fired him. That decision was made by the President, who so instructed the army. That's why the reburial is unusual. Reno dishonoured his uniform and the Army. He relied on his horse trading during the CW, once to often. You would not be giving me orders for long. I take it you were in the ranks?
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Post by quincannon on Mar 24, 2015 15:09:36 GMT -6
I am drifting into frustration.
Yes you may take it that I was in the ranks, from private soldier to Lieutenant Colonel. That is my hole card and contains any bona fides I may have.
Your are correct. You would not be taking orders from me long. I would shoot you.
Now at the risk of further being distasteful, I have shown you mine. You show me yours.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 24, 2015 15:20:41 GMT -6
You are the expert defending unplanned retreat which is more commonly known as rout. It usually gets the unit doing it wiped out, or heavy casualties. Exactly what Reno caused. You defend the guy. Full house.............. I would shoot you, by the way. It obviously would be in the back. CYA
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Post by montrose on Mar 24, 2015 15:30:29 GMT -6
Hero, Yes Reno was later court martialed for behavior irrelevant to LBH.
You chose to post in this thread. Try reading it.
LTC Custer was convicted by court martial for gross negligence for incompetent and immoral behavior, reflecting a lack of judgment and ability.
So go ahead and blame Reno for his actions in later years. How do you justify GAC 1867-1876?
Also your claim that the LBH river was a puddle, crossable anywhere is complete and utter nonsense. The Reno Bn traveled over a mile before they could find a crossing point. The banks meant no fording was possible, and they had to thread their way through heavy brush trying to find to cross. They could not get back to Ford A, as 900 Indians had cut them off.
Just a reminder, agriculture and the Corps of Engineers have significantly changed the water flow in the West. The LBH river today carries about a third of what it carried in 1876. This means slower current, lower depth, and less power, so banks are not cut as deeply as before.
This blind irrational hatred of Reno is completely irrelevant to LBH.
Please identify the causes of the defeat at LBH while completely ignoring the commander and his decisions.
Respectfully,
William
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Post by herosrest on Mar 24, 2015 15:36:21 GMT -6
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Post by montrose on Mar 24, 2015 15:44:37 GMT -6
And I am not defending Reno, I don't really like him.
Yet his likability has no relevance to 25/26 Jun 1876.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 24, 2015 15:53:19 GMT -6
Hero, Yes Reno was later court martialed for behavior irrelevant to LBH. You chose to post in this thread. Try reading it. LTC Custer was convicted by court martial for gross negligence for incompetent and immoral behavior, reflecting a lack of judgment and ability. So go ahead and blame Reno for his actions in later years. How do you justify GAC 1867-1876? Also your claim that the LBH river was a puddle, crossable anywhere is complete and utter nonsense. The Reno Bn traveled over a mile before they could find a crossing point. The banks meant no fording was possible, and they had to thread their way through heavy brush trying to find to cross. They could not get back to Ford A, as 900 Indians had cut tem off. Just a reminder, agriculture and the Corps of Engineers have significantly changed the water flow in the West. The LBH river today carries about a third of what it carried in 1876. This means slower current, lower depth, and less power, so banks are not cut as deeply as before. This blind irrational hatred of Reno is completely irrelevant to LBH. Please identify the causes of the defeat at LBH while completely ignoring the commander and his decisions. Ohh wait, I can just read any post you have ever written. Respectfully, William Both men had questionable history. The topic began by concentrating on Custer and was specifically related to LBH. Therefore, my responses are entirely in keeping with the topic. We can expand into Terry, Benteen, Weir and Edgerly.... but I chose Reno. It is given and researched in various degree that river course and flow has altered and amongst experts on this was Curley. W.M. Camp asked him in passing without going into significant detail, unfortunately. I believe that Curley owned that land of the retreat crossing at one time? The defeat at LBH occured because Reno retreated without orders before Benteen and the pack train arrived to support the fight. Broad opinion is that Custer did not engage before Reno retreated and he could not have expected the movement which Reno made. No one could. Therefore any consideration by Custer as to how to develop the situation he found was wrecked. Benteen was close at hand. Mounted hostiles were agile and adept at river crossing. Cavalry horses were weighted doen with equipment and stores and easily drowned, hence the need for fording places. Reno did not retreat across a crossing place, it was an unplanned charge off a cliff.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 24, 2015 15:58:35 GMT -6
Reno was in trouble, consistently, for being drunk. He was court martialled as a cadet for being drunk. This is directly relevant to LBH.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 24, 2015 15:59:27 GMT -6
HR I sometimes post up maps just like the one you have and the reason I do it is to try to explain myself easier as my military experience in zero, but you are playing a different game here, are you suggesting that Reno would know about such fords before he went down the valley? Did he have your map by any chance? Look this guy commanded a three companied battalion with only one officer as his adjutant and maybe a couple of orderlies, he was traversing terrain foreign to him, he then gets embroiled in a fight for life and you are saying that he should have done this and that and the other, well you have hindsight he had nothing, for all he knew he may not see the sun rise the next day.
Ian.
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Post by montrose on Mar 24, 2015 16:00:35 GMT -6
Okay I see your theory. You believe Reno should have defeated the Indians on his own.
Now, since LTC Custer had double Reno's force, by your logic, he should have annihilated the Indians , on his own.
Why do you have one set of logic for Reno, and a different set of logic for Custer?
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Post by herosrest on Mar 24, 2015 16:07:26 GMT -6
montrose - he did try. He did.
Yan Taylor - There was a crossing place and scouts used it in the retreat. They were cut off on the east bank. There was a ford, Reno did not know of it! So.... it's not unreasonable to believe his intention was a return to ford A. One company was left behind besides many stagglers, and when that company moved off they were overwhelmed. The retreat was a rushed panic. It is as probable that the retreat from the river by Custer's command encountered exactly the same disaster.
Back to support. It was on its way. It is understood that Reno eventually faced 800-1,000 hostiles. Benteen halved the oddsand the packs and McDougall did so again. All Reno had to do was wait 10 minutes, since Benteen was at Ford A. It really is that simple.
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