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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 16:13:29 GMT -6
And I am not defending Reno, I don't really like him. Yet his likability has no relevance to 25/26 Jun 1876. Simply pointing out the obvious character and personal flaws of Reno is not an indication of whether someone likes/dislikes or loves/hates him. It shouldn't even be a talking point. Reno's actions and behavior reveal a very weak character and a man with extremely poor judgement. Points that should be considered when evaluating his questionable performance at the LBH. Many of these traits appeared before the battle and got significantly worse following the battle. Regards Mark
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Post by herosrest on Mar 24, 2015 16:26:08 GMT -6
A good number of factors combined to defeat 7th Cavalry and the retreat from the valley was a significant one, whereby the regiment was then defeated in detail. Custer did not cross into the valley and attack but no-one knows why, it is simply speculated what he might have had in mind. The evidence for what occured is all over the place but, Custer was in command and formulating what to do and issuing orders. It is known he intended to cross the river and capture the village, Benteen and the packs were brought up, Reno retreated, Custer did not attack. Once he learned of Reno's retreat, he obviously declined to cross into the valley. Benteen did exactly the same and abandoned Ford A.
In the battle's aftermath, everyone with any level of responsible involvement, did CYA. Reno had a great big worry in his having disobeyed Terry's orders during the 6 company scout he led. The issue and consequences of his disobeying orders was up in the air at the time of the battle. Terry had not decided what to do about it.
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Post by chris on Mar 24, 2015 16:26:47 GMT -6
All Reno had to do was wait 10 minutes, since Benteen was at Ford A. It really is that simple.
You should have told him that.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 24, 2015 16:32:05 GMT -6
You could not tell Reno anything, I suspect. Gerrard tried whilst they were having a drink of whiskey together in the water at Ford A.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 24, 2015 16:59:59 GMT -6
There are only two simple things on this board.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 24, 2015 17:31:59 GMT -6
defeat at LBH occured because Reno retreated without orders before Benteen and the pack train arrived to support the fight. Broad opinion is that Custer did not engage before Reno retreated and he could not have expected the movement which Reno made. No one could. Therefore any consideration by Custer as to how to develop the situation he found was wrecked. Benteen was close at hand. Mounted hostiles were agile and adept at river crossing. Cavalry horses were weighted doen with equipment and stores and easily drowned, hence the need for fording places. Reno did not retreat across a crossing place, it was an unplanned charge off a cliff. Why do you continue to perpetuate this lie, a commander on site needs no orders to retreat! He may and must do what is required by circumstance! Are you thick or do you just wish to annoy and hear yourself spout the same lie. You have been corrected on this numerous times, Richard!
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 24, 2015 17:34:56 GMT -6
montrose - he did try. He did. Yan Taylor - There was a crossing place and scouts used it in the retreat. They were cut off on the east bank. There was a ford, Reno did not know of it! So.... it's not unreasonable to believe his intention was a return to ford A. One company was left behind besides many stagglers, and when that company moved off they were overwhelmed. The retreat was a rushed panic. It is as probable that the retreat from the river by Custer's command encountered exactly the same disaster. Back to support. It was on its way. It is understood that Reno eventually faced 800-1,000 hostiles. Benteen halved the oddsand the packs and McDougall did so again. All Reno had to do was wait 10 minutes, since Benteen was at Ford A. It really is that simple. You know it was on the way, good for you with 137 yrs of hindsight!
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 24, 2015 17:36:13 GMT -6
And I am not defending Reno, I don't really like him. Yet his likability has no relevance to 25/26 Jun 1876. Simply pointing out the obvious character and personal flaws of Reno is not an indication of whether someone likes/dislikes or loves/hates him. It shouldn't even be a talking point. Reno's actions and behavior reveal a very weak character and a man with extremely poor judgement. Points that should be considered when evaluating his questionable performance at the LBH. Many of these traits appeared before the battle and got significantly worse following the battle. Regards Mark You got "simply" right.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 17:36:18 GMT -6
HR: I am fully aware of what transpired. I am fully aware that Retreat Crossing is not a ford, not a really good place to cross, and a death trap to any crossing it in close contact. I am also very aware that the place Reno crossed was the only place available. What I suggest that you do is read my second paragraph again, or as an alternative learn to read and comprehend the English language. I take comfort in the fact that you will never lead soldiers of the United States, Canada, The United Kingdom, New Zealand, or Australia in battle. Please I implore you. neither your or scarface ever quote me again, lest I mistake the respondent for someone important and with substance I would also ask scarface to discover who placed those 1880 charges against Reno, whose daughter it was, who had lost a son at LBH, and who was Reno's commanding officer at the time. Reno's charges were thrown out at the Board of Military Review, primarily because there was undue command influence and conflict of interest. in placing those charges. His conviction was reversed, and he was buried as Steve said with full honors. Previously Mrs. Custer had single handedly prevented with her undue influence, those records being corrected and his burial with honors. If you have never been drunk, and accused of doing something stupid while drunk, cast all the stones you wish on him for this one act. If you have been drunk and done something stupid shut your frigging mouth for you have no standing. He wasn't court marshaled just once; don't forget the 1876 charge. Facing dismissal after being found guilty in 1880 he offered to resign, not the action of an innocent man. He was a disaster. No, I have never been drunk and accused of doing something stupid.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 24, 2015 17:38:30 GMT -6
You could not tell Reno anything, I suspect. Gerrard tried whilst they were having a drink of whiskey together in the water at Ford A. They drank together, you might want to check your facts before you get athletes mouth.
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Post by Beth on Mar 24, 2015 17:39:41 GMT -6
There was a ford in the timber, Kuhlman, Legend into History, 1948. Reno either didn't know of it or he hadn't learnt about it. Reno's men escaped in two different groups, scouts seperately as well, with over thirty people left behind. The first wave led by Reno, simply jumped off the river bank into the water at full gallop. I reckon they were going pretty quickly when they jumped into the water. thelbha.proboards.com/attachment/download/937what makes the ford in the timber different from any other place along the river? Did it have a path that lead directly up to the top of the bluffs? The problem really was never getting across to the river, it seems to me that the problem was getting to the top of the bluffs. Beth
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Post by herosrest on Mar 24, 2015 18:38:21 GMT -6
There are only two simple things on this board. Yup, how are they hanging? Obviously we hold different opinions. How would you handle things at Ford B, discovering that the advance (recon in force) into the valley had pulled out? You're qualified, and the thrust of this is chain of command. There is direct comparison of Custer and Reno with the 1876 valley fight, and that in 1873 now referred to as Battle of Honsinger Bluff - en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Honsinger_BluffSimilar force strengths, terrain, circumstances. No come backs, interested in your thoughts.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 24, 2015 18:52:06 GMT -6
There was a ford in the timber, Kuhlman, Legend into History, 1948. Reno either didn't know of it or he hadn't learnt about it. Reno's men escaped in two different groups, scouts seperately as well, with over thirty people left behind. The first wave led by Reno, simply jumped off the river bank into the water at full gallop. I reckon they were going pretty quickly when they jumped into the water. thelbha.proboards.com/attachment/download/937what makes the ford in the timber different from any other place along the river? Did it have a path that lead directly up to the top of the bluffs? The problem really was never getting across to the river, it seems to me that the problem was getting to the top of the bluffs. Beth There are a number of relevant points. Firstly, Reno was very, very lucky in that awareness spread amongst the hostiles of threat down stream and they pulled off wiping Reno out. Benteen was seen approaching and Custer was discovered, so there would have been some concern at what was going on. There is comment in respect this from Sitting Bull who held back a reserve and covered the families down river. The Kuhlman ford offered a route across the river which was not exposed to mounted attacks which occured as happened. The retreat could have been concealed and defended if the object was to reach the bluffs. Going up those bluffs, backs to the enemy and in contact with them, was suicide. Fortunately the hostiles abandoned Reno. Going up the ravines on the bluffs was as umb as it gets and he did not know the terrain other than eyeball from where he was. It should be obvious that Reno bolted for Ford A and whilst no record of him knowing Benteen and McDougall were on their way, it is truly hard to believe. Where did he think they were. He was told by Custer that the regiment would attack the village and then when rescued it's - oh, no plan. We didn't have a clue what was going on or what to do. Very, very questionable in this topic of CYA. What was Reno doing in the timber with a half and more his skirmish line withdrawn, and inviting the attack which occured as pressure on the line increased. Hostile strength gathering, whilst the fighting line diminished. What would you do as a hostile fronter, defending your camp and family? They did a Custer.................. Reno got Custer'd!
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Post by herosrest on Mar 24, 2015 20:01:41 GMT -6
It was again offered that a commander on site needs no orders to retreat and can do what circumstances dictate. This is not so. Reno was not operating on his own in the field. He was subordinate to Custer and carrying out Custer's order to attack. He was told he would be supported by the whole outfit (regiment) and was not therefore operating alone but as a constituent under Custer's authority. He was at liberty to exercise his authority to comply with his orders. He was not ordered to retreat. His commander did not know that he would or did, and therefore did not entertain that prospect in planning and updating his intentions. Custer was in command and Reno was under obligation to follow orders. Those orders stsed Reno would be supported. He was to expect support and conduct his operations under that expectation, and that constraint. He was in command of his battalion, he was not in charge of the battle.On -There is reference to Reno's retreat given in An illustrated history of the Yellowstone Valley : embracing the counties of Park, Sweet Grass, Carbon, Yellowstone, Rosebud, Custer and Dawson, state of Montana (1907). Link below. The account is qualified thus: - ' Of the many battles fought with the Indians none proved more disastrous than the battle of the Little Big Horn, where Gen. Custer and all his command were surrounded by the hostile Indians and killed. This battle is remarkable in so far that not one escaped to relate the story. The simple fact that all perished upon the battle field, not one being alive when the other columns came up the third day after the battle, has made an accurate description of the battle impossible; but the movements as traced by Colonel Reno together with the information gathered from the Indians engaged in the battle has brought to light enough information that writers are enabled to give almost an accurate statement of the positions of the different troops and the methods pursued by the Indians and a general description of the battle. [/font] The account relies greatly on Godfrey, some stuff from Two Moon, etc. and the unusual version of the valley fight copied - From information gathered from the chiefs who took part in the battle we must credit them with some very skillful moves. Their plan for surrounding Reno was tactful and had it been carried out Reno's forces would have been surrounded and met the same fate as Custer and his men. Reno found but little interference until he reached iiearly the upper end of the village. In the meantime, the Indians had circled around him to the south with the expectation of preventing his return across the same ford by which he crossed to the west side, thus surrounding him. They did not know that there was a ford farther north where he could retreat to the east side of the river. Their plan to surround him having failed, and he having gained the east side, they now planned to surround his force before it could ascend to the high bluffs. In order to do this the force of Indians south of Reno crossed the same ford where Reno crossed to the west side, and another detachment of the warriors was sent across at a ford farther north. The Indians arrived just a few minutes too late to accomplish their designs, and Reno was well on his way up the bluff before they arrived. Obviously Benteen would have seen such movement by the hostiles. There are other glaring errors in the account, but focus is the unique telling of hostile activity at Ford A when Benteen was arriving to meet Reno. Interesting anecdote. archive.org/stream/illustratedhisto00west#page/22/mode/2up/search/reno
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 24, 2015 20:28:40 GMT -6
what makes the ford in the timber different from any other place along the river? Did it have a path that lead directly up to the top of the bluffs? The problem really was never getting across to the river, it seems to me that the problem was getting to the top of the bluffs. Beth There are a number of relevant points. Firstly, Reno was very, very lucky in that awareness spread amongst the hostiles of threat down stream and they pulled off wiping Reno out. Benteen was seen approaching and Custer was discovered, so there would have been some concern at what was going on. There is comment in respect this from Sitting Bull who held back a reserve and covered the families down river. The Kuhlman ford offered a route across the river which was not exposed to mounted attacks which occured as happened. The retreat could have been concealed and defended if the object was to reach the bluffs. Going up those bluffs, backs to the enemy and in contact with them, was suicide. Fortunately the hostiles abandoned Reno. Going up the ravines on the bluffs was as umb as it gets and he did not know the terrain other than eyeball from where he was. It should be obvious that Reno bolted for Ford A and whilst no record of him knowing Benteen and McDougall were on their way, it is truly hard to believe. Where did he think they were. He was told by Custer that the regiment would attack the village and then when rescued it's - oh, no plan. We didn't have a clue what was going on or what to do. Very, very questionable in this topic of CYA. What was Reno doing in the timber with a half and more his skirmish line withdrawn, and inviting the attack which occured as pressure on the line increased. Hostile strength gathering, whilst the fighting line diminished. What would you do as a hostile fronter, defending your camp and family? They did a Custer.................. Reno got Custer'd! The picture you posted is of Reno's retreat ford. Did you have permission from the persons in it to post it? Regards Benteeneast
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