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Post by benteen on Jul 20, 2012 13:35:55 GMT -6
[quote author=quincannon board=discussion thread=4251 post=81758 time=1342811935 DC, Ulan, and Plainsman also have a good point that the note portrays no sense of urgency or immediate danger.[/quote]
Colonel,
I agree. Also after reporting to Benteen that he had a message for the pack train, Knipe yelled "Hurra Boys we got em" When Benteen asked Martini about the Indians he said "They skeddadling" So yes sir, there was no reason for Benteen to think that there was any sense of urgency
Be Well Dan
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Post by ulan on Jul 20, 2012 13:40:03 GMT -6
Ulan....I agree with you. However we cant discuss what he should have written only what he did. Be Well Dan What Custer did, he ordered Benteen back from his recon to the fight. He wasn´t to clear in his order because he just meant Benteen to connect with Reno. Custer was to busy with his own plans and hastely doing something to help Reno. If any other plan for Benteen was in his mind, he would have give him more exactly order.
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Post by benteen on Jul 20, 2012 13:43:16 GMT -6
Heres something to consider. It wasnt Custer that actually wrote the note, it was Lt Cooke. Does anyone think that it may be Cooke that fouled this up. That what he wrote wasnt exactly what Custer had said. Perhaps Custer was more specific in his order, but in his haste Cooke fouled it up. Just a thought.
Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Jul 20, 2012 14:01:51 GMT -6
Ulan: With due respect you were not the commander. What you would have done is immaterial. What was done is the only thing material here. I agree what should have been done., and stated as much. Dan is also correct. Cooke wrote the note and the adjutants signature (meaning speaking "for the commander") is relevent, but we have no idea if as it transpired Cooke did not fornicate with the puppy dog. If Custer intended that Benteen should go anywhere but to him it should have been clearly stated. It was not, therefore we can assume that coming to Custer was the intent absent any other information. If Custer's intention's were not contained in the note, it is still Custer's responsability, he was the commander. The fact that possible fault may lay somewhere else (Cooke perhaps) makes no difference. The commander is responsible for everything that happens or fails to happen. Responsability is not blame. It is responsability.
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Post by Gatewood on Jul 20, 2012 14:03:59 GMT -6
Dan,
I have always sort of thought the same thing - that maybe Cooke was the real culprit in all of this. He was an experienced adjutant, so you would think that he would be more clear in his instructions, even when written in haste. On the other hand, maybe through experience in working with each other Benteen was more adept at reading between the lines and deciphering exactly what Custer/Cooke meant than are we. In that sense, although he does not say so specifically, through various words and actions Benteen seems to indicate that he did in fact interpret the order to mean to come to Custer and second guessed himself ever after for failure to do so.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 20, 2012 14:18:18 GMT -6
Custer was no idiot. If he'd wanted Benteen and his men immediately, that would have been conveyed. He'd know from Boston that Benteen was back on the trail and finished his scout. I don't buy the clouds of dust theories clearly denoting presence of specific parties when viewed through closer clouds of dust.
He wanted Benteen to bring the packs, mentioned twice in twelve words, and not leave it to chance or lesser officer. This brought Benteen's potential arrival near the village down many notches. It nullifies any thought that he was in danger or was waiting for Benteen (given Reno was committed already and in action).
The only thing he'd discovered was that the village was probably bigger than planned upon, and the Sioux had enough to get the packs, improperly guided. Without the packs, no ammo, Dandy, special ammo for Custer's weapons, grain for mounts, food, medicines - they were cooked if that happened.
Custer could have no idea where he'd be when Benteen received it, or where exactly Martini would find Benteen given the number of Indians now on the march. He was impressing on Benteen the importance of the train, that the dance had started, and Benteen would know what to do.
And, he did.
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Post by wild on Jul 20, 2012 14:45:21 GMT -6
Dan As ever as honest as the day is long
et al Custer's order to Benteen was a 'You come to me" order. This order was written on the bluffs. So there is NO possible way Custer intended Benteen to enter the valley.
For that order to have meant anything but COME TO ME, there would have had to have been a positive order to Benteen from Custer prior to Benteen moving off to the west.
I think we can trust two Colonels of the US Armed Forces;officers who between them must have upwards of 70 years service in a competitive military environment;who survived and were successful in that culture to recognise an order when they see it.And when both concur as to it's meaning that is significant. It is clear that if it is an order then Benteen has questions to answer.If it is on the other hand as described by DC an exhortation then Benteen is in the clear. DC wise as he may be has no service experience.Now if it was a civilian situation he might have a point. The rest of you supply every interpretation but the one which screams to high heaven COME TO ME.
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Post by benteen on Jul 20, 2012 14:52:20 GMT -6
Dan, I have always sort of thought the same thing - that maybe Cooke was the real culprit in all of this. He was an experienced adjutant, so you would think that he would be more clear in his instructions, even when written in haste. On the other hand, maybe through experience in working with each other Benteen was more adept at reading between the lines and deciphering exactly what Custer/Cooke meant than are we. In that sense, although he does not say so specifically, through various words and actions Benteen seems to indicate that he did in fact interpret the order to mean to come to Custer and second guessed himself ever after for failure to do so. Gatewood, Here is another seemingly unimportant factor about that note that may have made a big difference. That is, not the note itself, but who they sent it with. I know that Martini was the orderly that day but here is a message that would turn out to be the most important message of his life and it is sent with someone who could barely speak English. Capt Benteen was bound to ask questions and all he could say was "They Skeddadling" He never even told Benteen that Reno and Custer had seperated or that Reno had attacked the village and had been repulsed, and was now heavily engaged. Had an NCO delivered the message and conveyed to Benteen what was happening I believe Benteen would have realized the urgency of the situation and responded to it. Would it have changed anything, who knows, but it is just something I have thought about. Be Well Dan
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Post by Gatewood on Jul 20, 2012 15:14:12 GMT -6
Dan,
I've always been under the impression that the reason that Cooke wrote out the note in the first place was because, as you indicated, he was afraid that Martini wouldn't be able to adequately deliver the instructions verbally.
On the other hand, I wonder if Martini's English was really as bad as it is portrayed as being. I know that we always say that it was on these boards, but I've never seen anything of a first hand nature indicating that it was. What I mean by that is that, for example, Benteen made no claims at the RCOI that he couldn't understand him, etc., so I don't know if he truly couldn't communicate well or if we just accept that and have perpetuated the idea through repetition.
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Post by benteen on Jul 20, 2012 15:31:25 GMT -6
Dan, I've always been under the impression that the reason that Cooke wrote out the note in the first place was because, as you indicated, he was afraid that Martini wouldn't be able to adequately deliver the instructions verbally. On the other hand, I wonder if Martini's English was really as bad as it is portrayed as being. I know that we always say that it was on these boards, but I've never seen anything of a first hand nature indicating that it was. What I mean by that is that, for example, Benteen made no claims at the RCOI that he couldn't understand him, etc., so I don't know if he truly couldn't communicate well or if we just accept that and have perpetuated the idea through repetition. Gatewood, You bring up a good point. I was trying not to be to disrespectful to trooper Martini, but it wasnt just his English language problems but his basic intelligence. I beleive Benteen said something like "He was about as cut out to be a soldier as he was a King" or something to that effect. At the RCOI he was asked why he didnt tell Benteen about Reno he replied "I wasnt asked" I guess that could mean if Custer got shot off his horse he wouldnt tell Benteen unless Benteen asked him how is the Generals health these days Be Well Dan
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Post by justvisiting on Jul 20, 2012 15:51:21 GMT -6
Custer was no idiot. If he'd wanted Benteen and his men immediately, that would have been conveyed. He'd know from Boston that Benteen was back on the trail and finished his scout. I don't buy the clouds of dust theories clearly denoting presence of specific parties when viewed through closer clouds of dust. He wanted Benteen to bring the packs, mentioned twice in twelve words, and not leave it to chance or lesser officer. This brought Benteen's potential arrival near the village down many notches. It nullifies any thought that he was in danger or was waiting for Benteen (given Reno was committed already and in action). The only thing he'd discovered was that the village was probably bigger than planned upon, and the Sioux had enough to get the packs, improperly guided. Without the packs, no ammo, Dandy, special ammo for Custer's weapons, grain for mounts, food, medicines - they were cooked if that happened. Custer could have no idea where he'd be when Benteen received it, or where exactly Martini would find Benteen given the number of Indians now on the march. He was impressing on Benteen the importance of the train, that the dance had started, and Benteen would know what to do. And, he did. Very good and I agree 100%. Now I've got to go over to the Custer Adulation board and see how they are ripping your post (and yes, I am a member before any blue ice bombardment starts-have you guys ever considered using blue ice for fire retardant?) Billy-who is Justvisiting
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Post by herosrest on Jul 20, 2012 16:39:20 GMT -6
There comes apoint where you either accept the first hand accounts, for example, those placing the Cheyennes where they wete. camped when Custer was across from their camp; or you buy into the fun and games that was W.A.Graham or J.S. Gray‘s fiction. In 1879 Martini indicated on a map where he rode back from. He rode back from the area of Ford B, from where he could not see the river. When he departed, Reno‘s command wdre fighting in the valley. Where did Martini view Reno‘S men from as he rode toeatds Benteen?
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Post by ulan on Jul 20, 2012 16:48:34 GMT -6
Cooke was not the commander, he was the adjutant. He had just wrote what Custer said....not more and not less.
I am not a Custer fan, but i too don´t think he was an idiot. He ordered Benteen to help Reno and then he try to play his own game with his own(and some 210 men) risk. A little respect i would have for this cause he, Custer, would probably never say that Reno or Benteen made the errors and were guilty for his own disaster(others do that). Custer tried to save the rest of his regiment while he and his clan played the card win or die.
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Post by Gatewood on Jul 20, 2012 17:03:50 GMT -6
At the RCOI he was asked why he didnt tell Benteen about Reno he replied "I wasnt asked" I guess that could mean if Custer got shot off his horse he wouldnt tell Benteen unless Benteen asked him how is the Generals health these days
Dan, That's a good point and something else that I've wondered about. I think that we have to look at it in the context of the times - both in terms of military rank and society class structure. In that sense, I'm not sure that a young, "lowly", recent immigrant private would presume to tell something to an "exalted" captain, no mater what the circumstances, unless the captain specifically asked him. Although serving as as a HQ trumpeter/messenger that day, Martini was actually a member of Benteen's own company, which I suppose could cut either way - he might either be more at ease with or more intimidated by Benteen.
The way I view it is that Martini probably delivered the message to Benteen and then fell in with his company, per Cooke's instructions, while Benteen, by indications, was riding a couple of hundred yards in advance. Therefore, there would have subsequently been little opportunity for Benteen to ask for clarification unless he specifically went out of his way to do so, and he probably didn't bother or think it was necessary.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 20, 2012 17:22:27 GMT -6
Ulan: The truth is we don't know what Custer said. We know only what Cooke wrote. In the American Army when the unit adjutant signs a document, it is done with the authority of the commander. He speaks for the commander in most official communications. Therefore it does not matter if the words "For The Commander" are appended to the document or not, it is something generally understood that whatever the document says are the desires of the commander.
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