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Post by jodak on Aug 19, 2016 6:06:32 GMT -6
David,
Like many things, I was once more familiar with the Tang episode than I remember now. The book you mention sounds like a good refresher - might have to get it. Thanks.
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Post by dave on Aug 19, 2016 10:58:38 GMT -6
David Commander Richard O'Kane was the most successful American submariner during the war if you combine the ships he sank as the XO of the Wahoo with the Tang's bag. The ordeal he and the other Tang survivors suffered as POWs is a story of courage and human deprivation. The Japanese treatment of POWs in WW II was horrific and a polar opposite of the treatment of POWs during WW I. The militaristic regime and spirit prior to WW II was cause of this sorry chapter of Japanese history. I am sure Jodak can and will add more information about this subject.
I have a copy of Theodore Roscoe's Submarine Operations of WW II with Admiral O'Kane's autograph. I would suggest additional readings if your are interested but you really should read about the exploits of the Wahoo. The Wake was written by a crewman who transferred from the Wahoo before her last patrol and is a really good read. Clear is O'Kane's story and extremly well written. I recommed both books. Regards Dave
Wake of the Wahoo: The Heroic Story of America's Most Daring WWII Submarine, USS Wahoo by Forest Sterling Clear the Bridge!: The War Patrols of the U.S.S. Tang by Richard O'Kane
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Post by edavids on Aug 19, 2016 12:03:53 GMT -6
David Commander Richard O'Kane was the most successful American submariner during the war if you combine the ships he sank as the XO of the Wahoo with the Tang's bag. The ordeal he and the other Tang survivors suffered as POWs is a story of courage and human deprivation. The Japanese treatment of POWs in WW II was horrific and a polar opposite of the treatment of POWs during WW I. The militaristic regime and spirit prior to WW II was cause of this sorry chapter of Japanese history. I am sure Jodak can and will add more information about this subject. I have a copy of Theodore Roscoe's Submarine Operations of WW II with Admiral O'Kane's autograph. I would suggest additional readings if your are interested but you really should read about the exploits of the Wahoo. The Wake was written by a crewman who transferred from the Wahoo before her last patrol and is a really good read. Clear is O'Kane's story and extremly well written. I recommed both books. Regards Dave Wake of the Wahoo: The Heroic Story of America's Most Daring WWII Submarine, USS Wahoo by Forest Sterling Clear the Bridge!: The War Patrols of the U.S.S. Tang by Richard O'Kane Thank you! I eat this stuff up! Another good read, Iron Coffins by Herbert Werner, former U-Boat officer who was handed a command late war and had no sinkings to his credit. I will double check but I'd like to see if Erich Topp had a book published. Best, David
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Post by montrose on Aug 19, 2016 14:48:44 GMT -6
Herbert Werner is to submarine warfare what Thompson is to LBH. He was really there, he has some facts, and then he added a few things. A few hundred things.
He took other people's exploits and claimed them for himself. He gives long stories to very exciting patrols, and sinkings; that are complete fiction. The German Uboat association and survivors exposed him years ago.
Compare this to the Tang, which was credited with 24 ships sunk. In the 1980s detailed analysis of Japanese records showed that she actually sank 31.
The funniest Werner story: he sunk his submarine leaving dock leaving dock. The Brits had dropped an acoustic mine that the harbor crews were searching for. When his ship left dock it was supposed to use the quieter electric motor, as all the other subs did. Instead his ship used their diesel motor, which set off the mine and sunk the ship. In his book he said he overslept on shore so it was all his XOs fault, and refuses to accept any responsibility. In the US Navy, that would have been his last day in command
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Post by edavids on Aug 19, 2016 16:58:22 GMT -6
Herbert Werner is to submarine warfare what Thompson is to LBH. He was really there, he has some facts, and then he added a few things. A few hundred things. He took other people's exploits and claimed them for himself. He gives long stories to very exciting patrols, and sinkings; that are complete fiction. The German Uboat association and survivors exposed him years ago. Compare this to the Tang, which was credited with 24 ships sunk. In the 1980s detailed analysis of Japanese records showed that she actually sank 31. The funniest Werner story: he sunk his submarine leaving dock leaving dock. The Brits had dropped an acoustic mine that the harbor crews were searching for. When his ship left dock it was supposed to use the quieter electric motor, as all the other subs did. Instead his ship used their diesel motor, which set off the mine and sunk the ship. In his book he said he overslept on shore so it was all his XOs fault, and refuses to accept any responsibility. In the US Navy, that would have been his last day in command He was quite a character. Still a good read and perhaps the reason he got his command so late is that there was no one else to give it to.
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Post by edavids on Aug 19, 2016 17:06:19 GMT -6
Gentlemen, Are there any submarine battles of WW2 that are echoes of Custer's final battle? By that I mean, was an Allied sub surrounded by enemy subs with no chance of finding a deep canyon to escape to? Please excuse my lack of knowledge on this subject, as some of you probably think it's a silly question; nevertheless, that's the question... Robb Howard Gilmore perhaps. Battled multiple enemy ships, rammed one, was wounded badly and sacrificed himself by ordering a dive while still there. There is another where a skipper took on multiple ships and escaped. Want to say it was Red Ramage but others will correct me. These were great escapes against odds but I would guess that most who found themselves in the situation you present were sunk without a trace or sperlos versinkt as the Germans termed it.
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Post by edavids on Aug 19, 2016 17:14:09 GMT -6
Checked and yes to Red Ramage. July 30 1944 took on a convoy and escorts. Earned the MOH for the action as a living human being not post mortem. Mush Morton on Wahoo had his share of crazy successes until fate caught up in 1943.
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Post by dave on Aug 19, 2016 18:11:41 GMT -6
Pequod The USS Puffer (SS 268) in October 1943 perhaps suffered the worst depth charging and attack from Japanese forces of any US Submarine that was not sunk. She sank to at least 570 feet, 270 feet below test depth, and was underwater for 37 hours plus. This was beyond the normal limit of 24 hour submergence. The CO2 level was very dangerous and she was fortunate to have survived. I have the report site listed below for further reading. Regards Dave www.usspuffer.org/puffer/ss268/war_reports/Puffer%20History%20Sub%20Commands%20POST%20WAR%20REPORT.htm
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Post by dave on Aug 19, 2016 19:27:46 GMT -6
The USS Billfish (SS 286) was another sub that suffered a severe and potentially fatal attack while on patrol. In this case the Sub commander and XO were unfit to serve and the engineering officer took over command of the boat. I have a source cited below for more information if desired. Regards Dave Don Keith wrote War Beneath the Waves: A True Story of Courage and Leadership Aboard a World War II Submarine which is about LT Rush and the story of the Billfish. I have a copy and highly recommend it to others ussnautilus.org/blog/captain-rush-responds-part-iii/
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Post by edavids on Aug 20, 2016 6:48:08 GMT -6
edavids & dave, Thanks for the tutorial on submarine exploits in WW2. My father was in the Navy during the war and served in the Marshall Islands (best swimmer on his ship, btw), while on patrol looking for enemy subs. My knowledge (of navel operations) comes from watching the old series, "Victory at Sea", from the 1950s. I did enjoy the Atlantic ocean while crossing on the Queen Mary 2 to England a few years ago. Never saw one submarine...! Robb Your dad sounds like he was a special man. My dad served at the tail end of WWII, seeing much more action in Korea and French Indochina. Look up the Gearing Class Destroyer Ernest G Small. Pop was the gunnery officer duringbthe ship to shore bombardment action where shw struck a mine. Amazing story. He was also assigned to an ASW team later in his career which is where my interest in subs got its start. Best, David
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Post by jodak on Aug 20, 2016 13:59:06 GMT -6
Gentlemen, Are there any submarine battles of WW2 that are echoes of Custer's final battle? By that I mean, was an Allied sub surrounded by enemy subs with no chance of finding a deep canyon to escape to? Please excuse my lack of knowledge on this subject, as some of you probably think it's a silly question; nevertheless, that's the question... Robb Robb, To answer your question literally, there were only a handful of sub vs. sub engagements in the war. With the technology of the day subs did not have the ability to find and track each other, as they do now, and most encounters were accidental and usually occurred when one sub, while submerged, happened to stumble across the other one on the surface and launch torpedoes at it. There were a few incidences where the Japanese tried to use a freighter or other ship as bait to lure an unsuspecting American sub into a compromised position to be attacked by a hidden Japanese sub, but I don't recall any of them being successful. As Dave and David alluded to, much more common were encounters between subs and enemy destroyers or patrol craft. These were generally very one sided affairs, with the destroyers having the advantage and doing all of the attacking, while the sub simply tried to slink away. From surviving subs we know of many harrowing close calls where the sub was stalked and depth charged, sometimes for hours, but, even so, most attacks on subs were unsuccessful. The real game changer for the Allies was the development of the small escort carriers, which were often used to provide air cover for convoys and, especially in the Atlantic, had hunter-killer groups formed around them that were specifically tasked with hunting down enemy subs. That resulted in large losses to German subs and was a key contributor to winning the Battle of the Atlantic. It was the nature of the game that submarine activities were highly dangerous, they were expected to go "in harms way", and numerous skippers were relieved for perceived lack of aggressiveness. As a result, it is understandable that numerous skippers elected, or felt compelled, to maybe pull a Custer and bite off more than they could chew by getting their subs into situations that they really shouldn't, sometimes leading to their loss. On the other hand, the more dangerous episodes that were survived were renowned and celebrated throughout the sub service and probably encourage others to take undue risks. A good example of one such episode was when the Wahoo actually entered into the narrow and shallow Wewak harbor, launched an attack, and made a successful blind, submerged escape using only a homemade chart and sound readings.
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Post by jodak on Aug 20, 2016 15:30:51 GMT -6
David Commander Richard O'Kane was the most successful American submariner during the war if you combine the ships he sank as the XO of the Wahoo with the Tang's bag. The ordeal he and the other Tang survivors suffered as POWs is a story of courage and human deprivation. The Japanese treatment of POWs in WW II was horrific and a polar opposite of the treatment of POWs during WW I. The militaristic regime and spirit prior to WW II was cause of this sorry chapter of Japanese history. I am sure Jodak can and will add more information about this subject. Dave, The treatment of Allied POWs by the Japanese was atrocious and of great interest to me. It bothers me that everyone seems to know about the things that the Germans did, but few know of the Japanese depravities, which were often worse. In fact, as far as POWs go, something like 40% of Allied POWs of the Japanese died in captivity, while the proportion that died while captives of the Germans was only about 1% and not significantly different from the normal death rate among troops due to sickness, etc. However, while there is no doubt that the Japanese treated our prisoners disgracefully, there were several extenuating circumstances that are generally overlooked or not understood. These were - 1) Allied prisoners suffered tremendously from the environmental factors surrounding their captivity, such as the heat, monsoon rains, and various tropical diseases, like malaria. While the Japanese could have done much more to mitigate these problems, the Germans did not have to contend with them at all. 2) Similarly the prisoners suffered from lack of adequate facilities and resources, like clean drinking water and good sanitation, and the attendant diseases like dysentery. Again, those problems were largely non existent in German POW camps. 3) Everyone knows of the Japanese low regard for POWs and their own propensity to never surrender, but not the reasons behind that. The Japanese considered a Japanese soldier that surrendered as being a deserter from his unit or AWOL. In our own forces desertion was considered a very serious affair, probably more so then than now, and dealt with harshly. Therefore, when it is considered that the Japanese thought of anyone who surrendered as a deserter, their scorn and treatment of them makes more sense. 4) Crap flows downhill. The culture in the Japanese military was one of fierce discipline, where officers beat the non-coms, who beat the enlisted men, who beat the prisoners. Therefore, while their treatment of prisoners was harsh, it was in many ways an outgrowth of their military culture of physical abuse that they considered normal. 5) Similarly, the Japanese culture on a wider scale played a role. Most Japanese at the time were basically poor peasants that lived lives of grueling labor, while suffering from inadequate food, housing, and so forth, as well as probably a good deal of physical abuse from their overseers . That was the environment that the majority of Japanese soldiers came from, and they knew no different and considered it normal as applied to POWs.
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Post by dave on Aug 20, 2016 18:00:40 GMT -6
jodak Very informative post of the causes of POW deaths under Japanese control. Two of the kids I grew up had fathers who were Japanese prisoners both on the Bataan Death March and survived 4 years of captivity. They were very anti Japanese and any Japanese products as well. Mr. Bunch had suffered terribly and limped the rest of his life from having his right leg broken several times for lack of respect to guards.
Mrs Mary McFadden, was a Dutch national, and her family were captured with the fall of Java. She, her little brother and mother were held in various camps all over Java until 1945 when freed. She suffered with vitamin deficiency issue the rest of her life dying at the age of 93. She was a pistol and a spiting image of Granny from the Beverly Hills Hillbillies show. She was tough as shoe leather and ran a ridding stable and horse training business till her late 80's.
Regardless of Japanese beliefs, the mistreatment of Allied POW's and various methods of executions was inhumane. Various killings methods used: buried alive, beheading, bayoneted, chemical and biological experiments, shooting and drowning as just a few. There was no extenuating circumstances for any of these atrocities.
My father turned 17 on December 15, 1941 and enlisted in the Navy on the 16th. He served on the USS Portland during the Doolittle Raid, Midway and the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal in November of 1942 when she had her stern blown off by a Japanese torpedo. He later served on a destroyer hit by a kamikaze. He later transferred to the submarine service. He retired in 1963 as a CPO. Regards Dave
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Post by jodak on Aug 22, 2016 10:49:48 GMT -6
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Post by dave on Aug 22, 2016 14:53:47 GMT -6
jodak Thank you for the link regarding the Japanese War Crimes. I knew that MacArthur saved the Emperor and limited the number of Japanese who were charged and tried. Obviously the fear of the Soviet Union attempting to enter Japan was one of if not the major reason for saving the Emperor and not continuing the trials of Japanese accused of War Crimes.
I was not aware of the Japanese successful destroying so many records and files as I had always thought the great distances in the Pacific coupled with fanatical resistance and caused the dearth of documents. Lack of critical thinking on my part clearly. Regards Dave
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