Mississippi Scouts/ W.T. Dugard

[stab]

Hi everybody,

I'm new to this message board - what an excellent place to be! I've been reading here for quite some time and now I finally registered.

I live in Germany and my great-great-grandfather came to the U.S. in the early 1870's, where he also enlisted in the army. Later, around 1889, he came back to Germany.

Now: From my grandmother I got his diary and many documents. There's a name which appears several times: William Theodore Dugard. What I found is, that he was one of the men, who claimed to be the "sole survivor" and that he was one of Custer's "Mississippi Scouts". I do know that many people doubt his story, but apart from that, could someone explain to me, what exactly a Mississippi Scout should have been?

I saw a picture of Mr. Dugard's grave on the net. On the stone it says he was born in 1864, which would of course make him only twelve years old at the time of the battle. My great-great grandfather, who was a friend of Dugard, wrote that he was born in 1860. The two of them obviously first met in a town called Atlantic City, when they where both trying to discover gold.

Thanks in advance for any help

Best wishes from Germany,

Stab.

P.S. Excuses for my bad English!

[fred]

Stab,

The name Dugard rings a bell, but I have been unable to find it in my notes. As for "Mississippi scouts," the only thing I can think of is that it refers to scouts the Seventh Cavalry used when some of its companies were engaged in Reconstruction duty in the South after the Civil War. In fact, one of the companies was recalled from Mississippi for the 1876 campaign.

As for your "bad" English, if my horrible German was 1/10th as good as your "bad" English, I would consider myself very lucky indeed.

If you do not mind telling me, young man, where do you live? I lived in Germany (with the U. S. Army) for more than three years: first in magnificent Wuerzburg, then in Schweinfurt, and then near Heidelberg. I lived outside of Mannheim, and was stationed at a NATO Kaserne in Mannheim-Seckenheim. As far as I can figure, my ancestors came to this country from somewhere in Prussia (Brandenburg) and Saxony.

Hope you stay active here.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[markland]

Apr 25, 2012 10:13:47 GMT -5 stab said:

Hi everybody,

I'm new to this message board - what an excellent place to be! I've been reading here for quite some time and now I finally registered.

I live in Germany and my great-great-grandfather came to the U.S. in the early 1870's, where he also enlisted in the army. Later, around 1889, he came back to Germany.

Now: From my grandmother I got his diary and many documents. There's a name which appears several times: William Theodore Dugard. What I found is, that he was one of the men, who claimed to be the "sole survivor" and that he was one of Custer's "Mississippi Scouts". I do know that many people doubt his story, but apart from that, could someone explain to me, what exactly a Mississippi Scout should have been?

I saw a picture of Mr. Dugard's grave on the net. On the stone it says he was born in 1864, which would of course make him only twelve years old at the time of the battle. My great-great grandfather, who was a friend of Dugard, wrote that he was born in 1860. The two of them obviously first met in a town called Atlantic City, when they where both trying to discover gold.

Thanks in advance for any help

Best wishes from Germany,

Stab.

P.S. Excuses for my bad English!

Stab, here is a history of Atlantic City, WY from Wiki: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_City,_Wyoming

PM me your g-g-g grandads name and any other information and I'll see if I can find him on the Regular Army enlistment register.

Billy

[montrose]

Billy,

Thanks for ruining a good story.

Since I went to college in Philly, I, too, spent a lot of time seaching for gold in Atlantic City. The New Jersy one.

Stab,

Several board members have served in the US military in Germany. I did two tours, one near Mainz, other at Stuttgart. Ich kann ein bischen Deutsch verstehen.

Dugard is a liar. He never served a single day in the Army, nor as a scout. Hundreds of folks claimed to have been sole survivors of LBH.

Respectfully,

William

[stab]

Hello guys,

thank you for your replies and the nice welcome.

I do live in Aschaffenburg, Bavaria, actually pretty close to Wuerzburg and Schweinfurt.

The funny thing is, that my g.g.grandfather claimed to have witnessed the same as Dugard. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he was there, but it still is interesting and fun to read. I wonder how he got the background information these days...he never made the papers over here with his story. He was planning to work on a book but died before it was finished.

So he was also one of the many men who was a "sole survivor" It actually seems to me that almost Custer's whole command survived, right? ;D Finkel, Heath, Ryan..
But as I said, it still is a nice tale.

Best wishes,
Stab.

[fred]

Apr 26, 2012 0:59:58 GMT -5 stab said:

The funny thing is, that my g.g.grandfather claimed to have witnessed the same as Dugard. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he was there, but it still is interesting and fun to read. I wonder how he got the background information these days...he never made the papers over here with his story. He was planning to work on a book but died before it was finished.

So he was also one of the many men who was a "sole survivor" It actually seems to me that almost Custer's whole command survived, right? ;D Finkel, Heath, Ryan…. But as I said, it still is a nice tale.

Stab—

I think that is great! I knew Aschaffenburg very well, a long time ago. I lived in Germany from 1962 through 1965, and remember Aschaffenburg as a very nice little city, a beautiful place. I am delighted you are on these boards.

I had a friend named Mike Nunnally who died in December, 2010, but who I always considered the “expert” on the charlatans who claimed to be the “last” or “lone survivor” of the LBH. He wrote a book about them—I think—and several very good articles. One of those articles appeared in the LBHA’s Winter, 2007, journal, Greasy Grass, Vol. 21, No. 1, titled, “Sole Survivor: Frauds, Imposters and the Battle of the Little Bighorn.” He mentions Dugard in the article, and here is what he wrote:

”In 2001 the Department of Veteran’s Affairs of Mississippi dedicated a new military tombstone for William Theodore Dugard of Tupelo, Mississippi. Dugard had been one of Custer’s ‘Mississippi Scouts.’ His granddaughter, Lois Greer, of Bolivar, Tennessee, campaigned feverishly for the new tombstone more than sixty years after her grandfather’s death. She had heard his exciting tales growing up. The new tombstone was erected with military honors, and ‘Taps’ was played over the grave. But William Dugard was born May 17, 1864, and would have turned just twelve years old at the time of the battle on June 25, 1876. His story was complete fiction. The Mississippi Veteran’s Affairs offered no explanation on their obvious oversight. No military records exist of Custer’s twelve – year – old ‘Mississippi Scout.’”

His tombstone reads:

William Theo Dugard
Custer’s Co Miss Scouts
Indian Wars
May 17, 1864
Nov 25, 1937
Battle of Little Bighorn
June 25, 1876

In the article Nunnally lists as a footnoted reference, Bartholomew Sullivan, “Little Big Horn Survivor’s New Tombstone,” Memphis Commercial Appeal, December 2001. I assume the Commercial Appeal is or was the local Memphis, Tennessee, newspaper.

And by the way, if you want it, that issue of Greasy Grass is probably still available, and probably for only $10 (U. S.).

It is a nice tale, indeed, Stab, but I think you have it absolutely correct: only a tale.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[stab]

Hi there, Fred,


isn't that great...Thousands of miles away and oceans apart - and then you meet somebody online who knows your city

Thanks a lot for your hint regarding the Greasy issue, I really have to obtain a copy of it.

"Custer's last stand" is pretty well known over here. Though, I have to admit, until I few years ago I had an absolutely wrong idea of the battle, as probably many people do have over here. In German history books Reno and Benteen are often not mentioned with one word, so that one could think it was only Custer - one attack and one fight at the Little Bighorn.

But luckily there are quite a few excellent english books around - and thanks to amazon, a couple of months ago I ordered some. Apart from the tale of my ancestor, by now, I'm so interested in it that I can't stop reading about it...

Btw, just like Dugard, my great great grandfather applied for a pension of the US Army in the late 1930's. I have his letters and also the answer, that he couldn't be found in the entlistment papers from 1876, and not at all in the 7th cavalry.

Have a nice day you all,

Stab.

[greatgrandson]

Apr 25, 2012 18:56:38 GMT -5 markland said:

Apr 25, 2012 10:13:47 GMT -5 stab said:

Hi everybody,

I'm new to this message board - what an excellent place to be! I've been reading here for quite some time and now I finally registered.

I live in Germany and my great-great-grandfather came to the U.S. in the early 1870's, where he also enlisted in the army. Later, around 1889, he came back to Germany.

Now: From my grandmother I got his diary and many documents. There's a name which appears several times: William Theodore Dugard. What I found is, that he was one of the men, who claimed to be the "sole survivor" and that he was one of Custer's "Mississippi Scouts". I do know that many people doubt his story, but apart from that, could someone explain to me, what exactly a Mississippi Scout should have been?

I saw a picture of Mr. Dugard's grave on the net. On the stone it says he was born in 1864, which would of course make him only twelve years old at the time of the battle. My great-great grandfather, who was a friend of Dugard, wrote that he was born in 1860. The two of them obviously first met in a town called Atlantic City, when they where both trying to discover gold.

Thanks in advance for any help

Best wishes from Germany,

Stab.

P.S. Excuses for my bad English!

Stab, here is a history of Atlantic City, WY from Wiki: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_City,_Wyoming

PM me your g-g-g grandads name and any other information and I'll see if I can find him on the Regular Army enlistment register.

Billy

[greatgrandson]

Allow me to correct the individual who called William Theo Dugard a liar and said he was never enlisted in the army.
Well sir, you need to get your facts straight before you call a man a liar because William Theo Dugard was my great grandfather. My grandmother was Gladys Dugard his youngest daughter and I know for a fact he was enlisted and he actually was a scout for Custard. I was raised by my grandparents and I use to play with my great grandfather medal from the army and we have his actual enlistment papers and where they recognized his role in the battle and the State of Mississippi has erected a monument in Tupelo,MS honoring his service and his role in Custard's last stand.

You sir are the real liar and you should apologize for your remarks. That is what a real man would do but I guess you don't really have the integrity to do that, do you?

[greatgrandson]

I would also like to say, that it just amazes me how so many experts there are, but when it comes from the individual's own account of what he did or didn't do, you guys have the nerve to say you are now the experts and there is no record of William Theo Dugard being in the 7th calvary. When in fact there is record and that is exactly what the State of MS used to validate his service.

How each of you so quickly discount my great-grandfathers own account of what he did in his life is beyond me. I grew up in this family and we all know the story and heard the accounts of my great-grandfathers time and we know the details that you all do not know. As for the record, the website that has William Theo Dugard grave also has only two of his sons listed, but in reality there were 16 kids (8 boys & 8 girls) with 3-4 dying in infancy. My grandmother was Gladys Dugard and the youngest. I met most of all my great uncles & aunts... Herman, John, Myrtle, Georgia, and Luke. Two were Baptist preachers. Anyways, I will take their position as well. My grandmother always said let all the people who do not believe have their way because we know and we have the first hand story from the horse's mouth, they have their stories and we have ours.

Best regards,
Chris G. Rhodes
Jackson, MS

[Yan Taylor]

Hello Chris;

The posters above are only giving their views on the articles and facts they have at their disposal, so if you first hand have information then please post it here. That is the only way you can fight your G-G-Dads corner.

So please enlighten everyone here with the story you know, otherwise it will eventually become lost before it can be given to other people who share information of this battle.

So instead of calling people liars or officers custard, because that will get us nowhere, just get on your soap box and give us the story you know.

Yan.

[dave]

Chris welcome to the Board from a fellow Mississippian up in Oxford. The poster montrose is a combat veteran who has long known of men who make claims of being "there" but were not. He is not an emotional man but rather a individual who uses facts to base his thoughts and opinions.

The second poster, Fred, is another combat veteran who has written extensively and incisively who also uses facts not emotions to base his research. If they sound rather harsh in their comments remember it is not a personal attack upon you or your antecedent but this seminal American event has so many false records and claims by men who swore they were with Custer but they were not.

The simplest way to resolve this issue is to provide access to his Mississippi records you have and then they can be studied and put out for all to decide for themselves. I look forward hearing more from you and enjoying your contributions.
Regards
Dave

[noggy]

Dec 28, 2017 12:27:29 GMT -5 dave said:

Chris welcome to the Board from a fellow Mississippian up in Oxford. The poster montrose is a combat veteran who has long known of men who make claims of being "there" but were not. He is not an emotional man but rather a individual who uses facts to base his thoughts and opinions.

The second poster, Fred, is another combat veteran who has written extensively and incisively who also uses facts not emotions to base his research. If they sound rather harsh in their comments remember it is not a personal attack upon you or your antecedent but this seminal American event has so many false records and claims by men who swore they were with Custer but they were not.

(The subject itself is not something I know anything about)

Both these brilliant posters have studied this for so many years and dealt with so many claims which are BS that I understand them not having a lot of patience with claims they regard as totally unsupported. I get that part too well, since I wrote my Master degree about a very small field which is plagued by flawed information, outright lies, bombastic claims about things we never will know, personality worship and so on (hey, sounds a little like LBH, right?), which then are referred to as facts by if at best half-studied people. The lack of expertise is though bearable, since all in all few know about/are interested in it while "everyone and their grandma" knows about LBH. Even here in Norway.

HOWEVER: Something tells me that both would be delighted if proven wrong on this and other stuff regarding LBH, so I too hope to see some documentation. It would mean learning something new. Which for any  student of a subject always is the goal.

PS: Weeeeell, I know a couple of Professors at my old University who would rather commit sepuku than yield an inch once their minds were made up in the 60s, but let`s keep them out of the equation.

[fred]

Chris G. Rhodes,

Allow me to correct you.

First of all, I see no claim by anyone here of being an expert. So you are making that up.

Second, the one person who really was an expert on matters such as frauds, liars, and charlatans claiming to have been with Custer and the 7th Cavalry at the Little Big Horn, died seven years ago. He was widely acknowledged by real experts as being the go-to guy on this subject.

Personally, I have no dog in your fight regarding your ancestor having served in the army. I neither know nor care. What I do know, however, is your ancestor served neither as a scout for George Custer, the 7th Cavalry as a regiment, nor was he at the Little Big Horn battle. All you need to do is check the regimental returns for the period: there is no Dugard listed in the regiment. That is a fact, regardless of what you claim or what papers you have. So whatever the state of Mississippi put up about the Custer scout and Little Big Horn business-- if anything-- that involves Mr. Dugard, it, too, is incorrect.

The only company of the 7th Cavalry in Mississippi, was K Company. That unit's home station was Fort Rice, D. T., and it was sent south some time after August 1874, assigned temporarily to the Department of the Gulf. It may have only been there from February through March 1876, though I am not positive of that. The company left McComb City on April 18, 1876, arriving at Fort Lincoln, D. T., on May 1, 1876. George Custer was not with it.

Everything I have seen on this thread says your man was born in 1864. The fight at the Little Big Horn site was 1876. Do the math my boy, do the math.

And like I said, I have no dog in the Dugard-Army fight... you are on your own there. I will say this, however: if Mr. Dugard served in the army, he was not an officer. And that much is an indisputable fact. And before you pull that hair-trigger, I know you never claimed he was. I simply blocked that avenue in case it opened somehow.

And Happy New Year, Chris.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[tubman13]

So, Chris this is what you got from Dri to Dwy in the 7th Cavalry June of 1876,see below. There were also no Dugards among the scouts or packers, not even 12 year old water boys. If, in fact he was older and a different Dugard, maybe he used another name, not uncommon. The first date listed by the individual is enlistment date.

Driscoll, Edward C. I Private 1850 Waterford Ireland
Laborer May 19, 1873 With Custer's column-Killed - Died June 25, 1876 Little Bighorn

Durselew, Otto A Private 1850 Frankfurt Germany
Clerk Dec 5, 1874 In valley & hilltop fights - Died Sept 30, 1877 Snake Creek M.T.

Dwyer, Edmond P. G Private Dec 1850 Fairfax County VA
Laborer April 14, 1876 In valley & hilltop fights - Date of Death Unknown

Regards,
Tom