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Post by benteen on Apr 28, 2013 20:34:05 GMT -6
Dan: 1) Did not Custer have orders that included the implied task of cutting off a hostile retreat to the Wolf Mountains? 2) Was there any significant water out that way? Two essentials of Indian life were grass and water. 3) Custer knew where the water was, at least where enough water was to support large populations. What he did not know is if there was enough subsistence out there to support just enough of the hostiles that could disrupt whatever he intended, at an inconvenient moment. 4) Blocking force is your term. Please explain to me why you might think it would be a blocking force. And yes it does not make much sense to put a blocking force in place in the same general direction you are attacking from. Colonel, My apology I still dont know how to break down each sentence. Capt Fred gave me instructions but I failed miserably. As a result I have to respond to you by the numbers 1..Custers orders from Terry..... In my opinion when Custer told Capt Ludlow in St Paul that he was going to break away from Terry the way he did Sully, That tells me that Custer was not the least bit concerned about any orders or direction from Terry. This was going to be his victory and his alone. For the record I think terrys orders were perfect CYA, but as to Custers directive I believe Terry said "Should you strike the trail that Reno found it is the commanders wish that you pass it and continue South and scout Tullocks creek feeling always to your left to prevent the Indians escape" Once Custer hit that trail and turned toward the village all thoughts of obeying Terry were out the window. Not, as I have previously mentioned, that he had any thought of obeying them in the first place. 2&3... Not sure what your point is. I couldnt get that map I wanted and dont have much knowledge of the area, but I would assume there are many lakes rivers, streams etc that have water in the states of Montana and Wyoming that dont include the Wolf Mountains and the Indians probably knew where they were. Didnt Chief Joseph take his people all the way to Canada. 4. Blocking force... Colonel, that is not my term but one I saw used by other forum members when explaining why Custer sent Benteen. I dont know the correct military term, but I would assume it is self explanitory. A blocking force would be a force that would prevent or block an enemies advance or retreat or escape. Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Apr 28, 2013 21:25:00 GMT -6
Dan:
1) I don't know what Custer had in mind with regard to Terry's order. Cutting them off from the Wolf Mountains was an implied task, and his concern about that was evident, in that is at least in part what was meant by scattering.
2) I think AZ can answer on the presence or sufficiency of water in the quantity that would support an outlier or tribal circle. Perhaps he will post because I do not know the answer. The point is though, neither did Custer, and therefore he took one of his most prudent, and perhaps the only prudent action of the day.
3) It was apparent that the bulk of the hostiles would be encamped along the river. Custer knew that. My thesis, and one I have shared above with Ian, is that while he realized it as the logical course, he had no idea that they would be co-located as they were, expecting them to follow the normal practice of separation at some short distance. Thus when he expressed "Big Village" or it was expressed for him, it was I believe the first time he realized his error, and was surprised by it. He therefore had to change on the spot to cope with the new information that was before him.
4) A blocking force does just what the name implies. It blocks an avenue of approach or egress. You don't block an area that is in the same cardinal direction generally that you are attacking from.
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Post by ulan on Apr 28, 2013 22:59:12 GMT -6
When Custer send Reno down to attack the village, he still didn´t know how big it was and if the camps were co-located or not. But he orders the attack.
If Benteen´s mission was like you think, than it dosn´t made sense that Custer send Reno to attack before he knowed the result of Benteen´s mission.
I don´t get the argument that Benteen would have block in the wrong direction. He was left from the camp if we believe Custer know allready were exactly the indian were. Was it impossible that the indians did saw allready whats coming up and began to move in that direction?
BTW: Custer send a battalion out to the south. If he just wanted to know if there were Indians in the area, than it would have been enough to send some scouts. But sending a battalion means Benteen had more to do when meeting any indians. Probably Custer dos not really believe that Benteen will find the indians there(otherwise he would had gave Benteen a similar order to Reno´s) but Benteen´s mission was something like a reinsurance for that possibly.
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Post by fred on Apr 29, 2013 5:21:04 GMT -6
My apology I still dont know how to break down each sentence. Capt Fred gave me instructions but I failed miserably. Dan, Simply type
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Post by quincannon on Apr 29, 2013 8:46:55 GMT -6
Ulan:
1) Google OODA Loop, and read the concept. That is the basis.
2) Yes, you are correct he (Custer) did not know how big the village was. What he did know is that there were a lot of Indians in the valley, but did not know how those camps were configured. Were there several smaller ones separated by distance (the common practice) or was it a large one? So no it did not make much sense to order and attack without precise, or as near precise as possible information on what lay ahead.
3) No sending Reno does not make much sense without information from Benteen, if Benteen's only mission was to find presence. Benteen's mission though was to both find, and if found neutralize. Under those conditions I find your point invalid..
4) Benteen's mission was not to block. Benteen's mission was to find and kill./ You can find with scouts. You can only both find anfd kill with combat power.
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Post by alfakilo on Apr 29, 2013 8:53:51 GMT -6
...when explaining why Custer sent Benteen. Sending Benteen off to the left may have been just a simple way of Custer being able to justify why he didn't follow Terry's order to "feel to the left". He tells Benteen to check things out and then return to the main march. Which Benteen did. Square filled. Custer was having his cake and eating it too.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 29, 2013 9:06:47 GMT -6
AK: Were it lip service to orders, would it have been necessary to provide that lip service before Custer attacked, or could it have been done after, and still been in line with Terry's implied mission?
Before makes more sense, if Custer was set on a deliberate attack, in this case meaning gather and collate his reconnaissance before making a decisive move.
If "feeling" was the intent, he could have felt with a few scouts. The implied task was to "feel" meaning find out. Benteen was poised to both feel and once felt severely molest.. This tells me, and I could be totally wrong that Custer had much more than lip service to Terry or CYA on his mind.
What makes this hard to fathom is the absence apparently of control measures placed upon Benteen. If they were there I don't think we know what, if any they were.
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Post by fuchs on Apr 29, 2013 9:38:29 GMT -6
What he did know is that there were a lot of Indians in the valley, but did not know how those camps were configured. Were there several smaller ones separated by distance (the common practice) or was it a large one? Several times I have seen the argument that the Indians "usually" would spread their camps a few miles apart, and that this was "common knowledge" among the soldiers. Now, was it? Exactly how often did the Army run in situation like the Washita before the LBH? And how many of those were in the summer? I understand that at the Washita there were semi-permanent winter camps, and indeed in winter the Indians could be expected to spread out. But a summer camp, if it was big, was for the explicit purpose of "get-together". Not much point in stringing it out over more miles than necessary. The Army encountered such large summer camps several times. Killdeer Mountain, the large camps Fred mentioned in the Connor Campaign, and their scouts should have been able to tell them that it is entirely possible that in Summer there would be large, compact camps, if only for a few days at a time. And if I'm not mistaken, earlier in the campaign there were repeated compact camp sites of around 400 lodges, which while not huge, would still yield about 1000 warriors according to the "Army formula" of 2-3 warriors per lodge.
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Post by ulan on Apr 29, 2013 9:40:17 GMT -6
Ulan: 1) Google OODA Loop, and read the concept. That is the basis. 2) Yes, you are correct he (Custer) did not know how big the village was. What he did know is that there were a lot of Indians in the valley, but did not know how those camps were configured. Were there several smaller ones separated by distance (the common practice) or was it a large one? So no it did not make much sense to order and attack without precise, or as near precise as possible information on what lay ahead. 3) No sending Reno does not make much sense without information from Benteen, if Benteen's only mission was to find presence. Benteen's mission though was to both find, and if found neutralize. Under those conditions I find your point invalid.. 4) Benteen's mission was not to block. Benteen's mission was to find and kill./ You can find with scouts. You can only both find anfd kill with combat power. Well, if i got you right you think that Benteen was send to the left and if he found indians, maybe one of seperate villages, he would had to attack them. So Custer taked the risk to attack seperate camps with his split Regiment?
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 29, 2013 9:48:25 GMT -6
Benteen was ordered to pitch in to any camps he found, so it was a battle mission as well as a scout, so this mission was twofold, not only to locate Indian satellite camps but to keep any Indians from attacking the main body once it attacked its objective, otherwise they could have sent a detail along with a few Indian scout to locate and inform the main body of any threats located to the left of the advance.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 29, 2013 9:54:56 GMT -6
Ulan: Yes that is how I see it. Were it only to find or "feel" in the language of that day, there would be no need for combat power. As it is he sent one fourth of his available combat power in that direction, and I don't think picking daisies was the purpose. Ian seems to agree.
Follow where he went as close as you can, for the exact route is somewhat unclear in detail, and you I think will find that any hostile presence from that quarter would be critical to an attack on the main village(s) along the river. Making their presence known at an inopportune moment during such an attack would place them to the left and rear of Custer's main body if he had attacked in mass, or at the same place had he let Reno attack as he did alone.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 29, 2013 10:02:37 GMT -6
Yes Chuck I agree with you, plus Benteen was the only Battalion Commander sent on a scout without an Indian guide, Custer had Bouyer and Reno had Bloody Knife, both were scouts, so Benteen went on a scout without a scout, Custer and Reno went on the attack with scouts, are you confused? Well I am.
Ian.
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Post by ulan on Apr 29, 2013 10:05:48 GMT -6
Benteen was ordered to pitch in to any camps he found, so it was a battle mission as well as a scout, so this mission was twofold, not only to locate Indian satellite camps but to keep any Indians from attacking the main body once it attacked its objective, otherwise they could have sent a detail along with a few Indian scout to locate and inform the main body of any threats located to the left of the advance. Ian. What is the source of that order. Is that coming from the official record of a court of inquiry(Or what was the name?)? Custer did not know what Benteen found or not but sends Reno to attack. So it was possible that Benteen and Reno attacking at the same time but some 8 miles or so from each other. Wouldn´t this possible scenario not a bit risky, even for Custer?
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Post by alfakilo on Apr 29, 2013 10:06:29 GMT -6
AK: Were it lip service to orders, would it have been necessary to provide that lip service before Custer attacked, or could it have been done after, and still been in line with Terry's implied mission? It was just a thought. Custer must have had some reason for sending Benteen off. Since most folks concur that Custer had his own attack in mind from the beginning, it makes sense that he would send Benteen off before the main attack with orders to return to bolster the size of the main force. I agree. Makes me wonder as well. I haven't seen much evidence of what Custer actually did tell Benteen to do. Or why. Of course, one may believe, as the Costume Boy does, that Custer was simply punishing Benteen for "not playing by the rules" when Benteen immediately declared his companies to be ready when Custer asked him, Reno, and McDougall to "ascertain the readiness of their companies" (Donovan, pg209)...whomever reported back first would have the "honor of the advance". Costume Boy believes that Custer then thought that Benteen had "cheated" and as a result sent Benteen off as a form of punishment. After the battle, Benteen said that Custer's orders to him on this scout was to "pitch into" any NAs that he came across. If not, Benteen was to return to the main body as soon as possible. One only has to imagine what Benteen thought about his chances of success when faced with the prospect of "pitching into" an enemy force of unknown size with his 120 men. And then, having grabbed that potential tiger by the tail, what next? Who knows what Custer had in mind...just another decision that perplexes us today. There probably was a reason, Custer wasn't stupid as has been said many times. I can only come to this conclusion. Custer must have thought that Benteen's force was capable of handling whatever he came across...again, the idea that the warriors would run rather than fight. But run to where? Another unknown. All in all, a move not well thought through...at least as far as we can see today.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 29, 2013 10:44:17 GMT -6
Ulan: The orders were apparently to - go find and if found to pitch into. They are contained in the RCOI. They were VOCO (Verbal orders of the Commander) and not something reduced to writing.
AK and Ulan: Don't think Custer liked Benteen much, but I think he evaluated him as a man of good judgment, and sent him on a mission where he knew he would exercise that judgment. If he ran across a medium sized tribal circle out there, his 120 men could have neutralized it ( prevented it from interfering with Custer's plan(s). He would be expected to neutralize, but also exercise judgment in what he could neutralize. In other words if he were to find something huge out there, to report and observe. Chances of finding much out there beyond his own capability were slim I think, and I would be even more positive if I knew the sufficiency of water out there. I do not. AZ does and he will post in due time. Military operations are not about liking someone, they are about selecting someone who can and will do a job, as you and I both know well AK.
Keogh's opinion is Victorian era melodrama, not a fair evaluation of mission and intent. I guess that is OK if you are here for melodrama like tying widows and orphans to the railroad track as done by "Desperate Dirty and Depraved Dan Misdeed" but don't think that is the kind of drivel we come here for.
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