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Post by Dark Cloud on Nov 14, 2011 9:42:49 GMT -6
Pat and Kevin Tillman. When Pat was killed, they had to disarm Kevin in the field, where they were serving together. That speaks to everything wrong with the practice above and beyond having to tell family they lost more than one. It's a stupid practice, and dangerous.
Autie Reed was his nephew, not cousin, I think.
Also, there was the business with Calhoun's brother whom Custer tried to get into the 7th. He spent time trying to encircle himself, and I think it ought to be given more attention and thought as to how that would function under trauma.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Nov 14, 2011 9:46:44 GMT -6
Chuck, those stories reminds me of the Pals Battalions from WW1; I found this data on a Somme Web Site, featuring the Battle for a village called Serre.
Serre was one of the strongly fortified villages held by the Germans at the beginning of the Battle of the Somme. The village, about five miles north of Albert, marked the most northern point of the main attack on the 1st of July 1916 (although there was a subsiduary attack at Gommecourt, a mile or so further north). The name of Serre has come to be linked closely with several of the 'Pals' battalions, which suffered very heavy losses in the attacks made here. The Pals battalions were part of Kitchener's Army, and they were formed in specific towns or cities, where battalions were raised following the call to arms. As many of those who enlisted were friends, colleagues or relations, the idea was that by enlisting together in the local Pals battalions they would stay together during their service. The casualty lists that came back after the 1st of July 1916 devastated some of the communities which had sent these Pals battalions. As friends, colleagues and relations had joined up together, so they often died together, and families, streets and whole communities grieved together when the telegrams arrived.
Another fine mess from the top brass back home in blighty.
Ian.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Nov 14, 2011 10:00:27 GMT -6
But this did not start with the 'Pals' as previously the regiments and units bore the names of the locality from which it arose for centuries. Pals was just a bit to encourage peer pressure to get enlistments before they mandated the draft. If you signed for Pals you had some more mobility before being called up as one unit. It was just PR and a name for something long established. It was indeed god awful - the Irish units in particular got creamed at the Somme - but they had to do this after the very excellent BEF was wiped out, near all six divisions, by the end of 1914, and they had no large trained force behind it as Lord Roberts had warned about and Kitchener had to address in a hurry. There was also the law that only volunteers could serve overseas, and they had to keep units in England against invasion and bring in the colonials. Hence the Australians at Gallipoli and Indians and Canadians everywhere. Pals wasn't much different than in the US where units were raised by locality as well. The unit that caved initially at the Bulge was a NG unit from Pennsylvania and famously incompetent and corrupt and rife with nepotism. The Germans knew it and hit them first on purpose. Went as expected. In Blackadder, the character played by Hugh Laurie was a member of the Tiddlywinking Leapfroggers of the Class of 1914, and in 1917 the only one still alive. It was a parody of the Pals system. I hope. www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJZsZ0bWTSw
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Post by bc on Nov 14, 2011 10:50:46 GMT -6
I know the army was watching families fairly close in 1944. I had 6 uncles in the service on my mother's side. One was in the merchant marines, two in the Navy, and three were in the army. Raymond was in the field artillery unit that was trained as rangers and changed to the 6th Ranger Battalion. They were all in formation before loading on the trucks to the train to go to the pacific for New Guinea and the landing at Leyte Gulf when they called him out. They told him he had a brother missing in action in Italy and one missing after Normandy and wouldn't let him go with his unit.
Turns out one brother had been wounded and captured at Monte Cassino and was listed as missing. The brother who landed at Normandy never was missing as far as he knew but things were moving fast and maybe the army lost him. His unit was involved in the St. Lo bombing campaign where the first wave of bombers left a mass of smoke and dust. Each successive wave began dropping their bombs short to miss what was bombed in front and backed right up into American units killing about a thousand of them. At any rate, Raymond thought he was probably spared the rest of the war cause of his brothers.
bc
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Post by quincannon on Nov 14, 2011 11:54:09 GMT -6
DC et all: Company A, 116th Infantry from Bedford, Virginia was a National Guard unit called up in 1941. By 1944 when they landed on Omaha Beach they had been brought up to wartime strength by draftees, but it was still full of the men who were mobilized in February 1941 from the same town, and still retained the hometown flavor. That company sustained terrible casualties on 6 June and nearly all of the Bedford people found their way to the casualty lists. This one day devestated a complete town. There is a very good reason why the National D-Day Memorial is located in Bedford, Virginia. Units composed of men knowing each other and sharing common interests has its advantages, but those advantages must be tempered with the possabilities of another Bedford.
DC: I think you are only partially correct in your accessment of the 28th Infantry Division at the Bulge. In 1942 when Bradley took command of this division after the division commander was retired for being overage, the situation that you describe was exactly correct. Bradley talks about this in "Soldier's Story" and Clair Blair also addresses it in his biography of Bradley. Now as you know I don't have much use for Bradley, but in this instance he took the correct steps to break up this playhouse, wholesale transfers and the like.
The real problem in December 1944 was that this division had just been gutted in the Hurtgen Forest. Charles MacDonald comments on this division adversely in the opening pages of "Company Commander" when his company relieved a company of the 28th ID. The real problem though, the one detected by the Germans was that this division was so strung out exceeding the normal division frontage by at least a factor of three that the division's center, the 110th Infantry was a piece of fruit ripe for the picking. They were hit and largely destroyed covering the approches to Bastogne. I think that considering they were still understrength, and what replacements they recieve were completely raw, the 110th did all that could be expected of a widely dispersed regiment facing the overwheming numbers and the type of opposition (heavily laced with armor) they faced. I will refer you to a relatively new book on the subject "Alamo in the Ardennes". It is also noteworthy that the sister regiments of the 110, the 109th and 112th conducted themselves splendidly and held on to both shoulders of the penetration.
I do agree though, despite what I said above, that the 28th was not up to the same standards as some of the other divisions. Certainly not the same caliber as the 1st and 2nd, and not anywhere near the 30th, another National Guard Division that had similar troubles in its early post-mobilization days. There is a book about the early days of the 30th, the name of which I forget, which bordered on national scandal to the point where it was then suggested that the National Guard be done away with post war.
The 30th and the 45th (in Italy and Southern France) were about as good as the National Guard gets, and while they suffered the same teething problems, they overcame it with outstanding leadership. The 28th was an also-ran, but not for the reasons you apply to it.
Were I to rate the infantry divisions in the ETO, I would have to say that 1st,2nd 3rd, 9th, 30th and 45th were top tier. The 34th was good. Almost all the rest of the RA and NG division were fair. The Army Reserve divisions were OK but not great, except the 90th, which also got off to a very bad combat start but recovered and recovered well, and the 104th with Terry Allen. I would put the 28th down very low on the list, perhaps not at the bottom but very close to it.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Nov 14, 2011 14:16:02 GMT -6
I got much of the info about that group from Paul Fussell in one of his books, and it even appeared, I recall, in the Time-Life history of the war, and I quoted it several times on this board but cannot get the search function to work. Fussell fought in the Battle of the Bulge and seemed to be clear about it and had read German dispatches for his research. He's anti-romantic about war.
Although, he also thanks Truman for the bomb and using it and he shares your view of Bradley - of which I was unaware - for sending troopers into a northern European winter without remotely addressing the clothing issue among other things. He seems to regard him as a well meaning, slow witted, not too competent officer.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 14, 2011 14:33:06 GMT -6
I regard Bradley in a similar light - Self serving, slow witted, and not very competent.
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Reddirt
Full Member
Life is But a Dream...
Posts: 208
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Post by Reddirt on Nov 19, 2011 18:34:21 GMT -6
Reddirt: Leadership cannot be determined by looking at only one aspect of a man. It is the sum total of his performance and more importantly the sum total of his unit's performance. Patton did not slap a soldier in "sick bay". It was a hospital tent. Sick bays are on ships or naval installations. He did not slap one. He slapped two on two different occasions, emabarassed the President of the United States twice, and sent good men to be killed to rescue his son-in-law from a German POW camp. Then there is the alleged story of him getting angry with his wife and throwing her down the stairs at the officer's club at Fort Benning. I say alleged, for this conduct has been long rumored. The story was still going around when I was there in 67. To my knowledge it has never been formally reported or verified so it must remain a rumor. Every leader has their flaws Reddirt. The question is do the flaws outweigh, the good they do. I am sure that Sherman and Sheridan fell somewhere between liking and putting up with Custer. A whoopsie like LBH does tend to change your mind though, and keep your distance. There were some promotions to Major General that were based on much less combative qualities than flamboyant dress and love of dogs. In fact I consider Custer's love for dogs one of his better, if not his best quality. I appreciate your response and I agree with you;the love of animals says a lot for anyone. If Patton did indeed throw his wife down a set of stairs then his "flaws" certainly outweigh the good!
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Post by quincannon on Nov 20, 2011 10:22:01 GMT -6
Reddirt: I want to place renewed emphasis on the fact that the story of Patton, his wife, and the staircase in question is rumor, an old soldier's story and nothing more to my knowledge, but it is out there.
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Post by wild on Nov 20, 2011 17:39:03 GMT -6
It was a parody of the Pals system. I hope. Unfortunately not so DC.In fact the Royal family decided to raise a pals unit from their own ground staff.The unit was captured by the Turks and all shot.The news of the tragedy was witheld from their Magesties for fear of spoiling their war.Instead they were informed that the unit disappeared into the clouds.
But this did not start with the 'Pals' as previously the regiments and units bore the names of the locality from which it arose for centuries There was hardly a Welsh man in the South Wales Borderers at the time of Rourkes Drift.They were mostly English and Irish.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Nov 20, 2011 18:12:09 GMT -6
I don't see how the Royal family's Pals unit reflects on whether or not Richard Curtis and Rowan Atkinson were parodying the Pals system with Hugh Laurie's fake unit. The Pals unit expanded upon regional affiliations to work place and other relationships, like sports teams.
Whether or not there were hardly any actual Welsh in a unit forty years previous, for centuries units had been raised by locale, but once established, some became Royal affiliated, some became else, but there were numerous units based on common locales. The attrition was so great by the end of the war no doubt the Isle of Man Men's Laundry Brigade had many not from the Isle of Man. The fact remains that local based units were common both with the British and the US through the Second World War. All Pals did was, in an attempt to get people to conveniently join together as a group for peer pressure and ease of organization was to extend it to places of work, sport, and schools, not just locale.
What I hoped is that there was not an actual Tiddlywinking Leapfroggers group.
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Post by wild on Nov 20, 2011 18:31:15 GMT -6
What I hoped is that there was not an actual Tiddlywinking Leapfroggers group. I thought the Queen's own Gardeners might run the Tiddlywankers close.
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Post by wild on Nov 20, 2011 19:25:32 GMT -6
But this did not start with the 'Pals' as previously the regiments and units bore the names of the locality from which it arose for centuries. Pals was just a bit to encourage peer pressure to get enlistments before they mandated the draft. If you signed for Pals you had some more mobility before being called up as one unit. It was just PR and a name for something long established. DC This is incorrect. The regular British army was regimented and those regiments were recruited from a much larger catchment area than that from which the Pals battalion was recruited. A regiment,for example the Black Watch; could have as many as 5 battalions plus a depot/training battalion.The line battalions would draw their trained recruits from the training battalion.Also the regiment never fought as such having its various battalions brigaded with battalions from other regiments. The pals battalion was just that and were raised as I have said from such as the Queen's gardeners.A quick glance at google shows a stockbrokers battalion. So the Widdlytinkers were not that far from the truth.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Nov 20, 2011 19:51:11 GMT -6
If it's incorrect, your examples shouldn't evidence my contentions. Anyway, done.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Nov 21, 2011 7:17:52 GMT -6
Richard, The Grimsby Chums (one of the Pal’s Battalions) was raised in Lincolnshire; it was officially named the 10th Battalion, Lincolnshire Regiment. It was also the only Pal’s Battalion to have the name ‘’Chums’’ (only in England would you call a unit by this name, you would think that they were going to play the Essex old boys at Cricket), they went into action at the Somme, they occupied the famous crater made by a huge mine detonated earlier, they were stuck in this Crater for the rest of the day, whist under German fire. 2nd Lt. Hendin and five men managed to get to the German reserve trench, and after gathering stragglers, they held off various German counter attacks, before having to retire. After the battle the Battalion had only two Officers and 100 men left, having suffered over 500 casualties.
Ian.
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