jag
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Post by jag on Aug 4, 2011 10:08:32 GMT -6
Jag Page 471 RCOI.....McDougal only tells of ONE....I repeat ONE.. lone tepee. So jag....If you are trying to put words into my mouth that I never said, at least use words that would be close to what I mean. I never called anyone a liar....I don't know how you came up with that word.....I think if you were going to put words into my mouth you MIGHT have come up with the word ....STUPID ....and it would have fit a little better. But as you should be able to see, I have not called anyone that either...  RB If you're going to quote from the damn document. Do it. Q. From that point where the regiment separated, state all that happened in regard to the manner of movement- the halts, the orders received, and every circumstance and fact within your recollection up to the time you joined Major Reno on the hill. A. We started about twenty minutes after the command left. Lieut:, Mathey in advance with the pack mules, made the trail and we followed in the rear. Whose trail he followed I don't know; whether an Indian trail or that of General Custer. We proceeded along the trail till we came to a kind of marshy watering place (How interesing - marshy watering place first, corroborates Edgerly's and Benteen's statements doesn't it about where it was located?), where I found 5 or 6 mules mired, I dismounted my company to assist the packers, and we got them out in about 20 Minutes. We adjusted the packs and started on. About 4 miles from there we came to an Indian tepee (Same distance to ahem the tepee from the morass as Benteen, if you'd care to notice - cough). I dismounted and looked inside, and found three dead Indians and a fire built round. From that point I saw in the distance a very large smoke, and I told Lieut. Mathey to halt for a few minutes till we could close up the entire train and prepare for action, which he did. About a mile from that point, Lieut. Mathey sent word to me that the fight was going on, I told him to hurry up witch the mules as fast as possible. I went on about 2 miles (3 miles from tepee, ummm same place as Benteen was when he received the message from Tmtr. Martin.) and saw some black objects on the hill in a mass, and I thought they were Indians, I told my company we would have to charge that party to get to the command; We drew our pistols. I put one platoon in front of the pack train and one in the rear, and charged to where those persons were. I found out then that it was Major Reno and his command. I see nothing to indicate that he lied in any way about what he saw or did. Or when. I suppose you'd say that he came upon the tepee first and then the morass to justify your need to change their stories into lies. And he didn't see a tepee with 3 dead Indians in it to satiate your desire to have but one dead Indian in one lone tepee. Or. That they was a part of 1 that had been cut up to accommodate several tepee's. Odd isn't it. That he could definitely report what he clearly and lucidly observed. I see nothing wrong with what he observed. He obviously saw a different tepee than the others did, they reporting only 1 warrior in their tepee. Shoots the hell out of your theory that only one wounded Indian died of their wounds after they came back from the Rosebud. And that there were other tepee's with dead indians in them about those camps, ie. lone tepee's by the very definition of what they saw, where and when. |
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Post by rosebud on Aug 4, 2011 21:46:19 GMT -6
Jag
He never mentions a second or third tepee. Do the math.
Check and mate you lose.
Oh yes..I have never said the morass was below the lone tepee.
Both morasses they talk about are ABOVE the lone tepee.
RB
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Post by rosebud on Aug 5, 2011 4:48:39 GMT -6
Jag
Hope you are feeling better, that cold or cough you have is effecting your thinking.
When you get well, show me ONE soldier that states he sees more than ONE lone tepee.....McDougal clearly only has ONE lone tepee.
What that has to do with your coughing and gaging about a morass is over my head. Cough Cough Gag.....Dang now I might be catching what you have.
3 lone tepees?.....Students of the battle?...Come on, get real. This is a rookie mistake or a book salesman trying to sell a book.
RB
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jag
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Post by jag on Aug 5, 2011 7:05:12 GMT -6
Jag Hope you are feeling better, that cold or cough you have is effecting your thinking. When you get well, show me ONE soldier that states he sees more than ONE lone tepee.....McDougal clearly only has ONE lone tepee. What that has to do with your coughing and gaging about a morass is over my head. Cough Cough Gag.....Dang now I might be catching what you have. 3 lone tepees?.....Students of the battle?...Come on, get real. This is a rookie mistake or a book salesman trying to sell a book. RB Multiple posts how quaint. Reminiscent of another poster elsewhere, when damn sure of himself, which he never is, does the same thing. What was that about post counts? Damn my memory is failing me. Still you didn't address my singular post about McDougall's multiple, whatever. Or read the post at all. Or you'd have comprehended different after stopping in mid sentence to sneeze before continuing on to some other interest. It is obvious you haven't read Gray at all, or if you did, you didn't comprehend a word he said. Or more as likely, your mind was off daydreaming about what you thought he should have been saying rather than what he was. About phantom tepees. There's no science involved in this to equate sense over sensibility other than nonsense feeding nonsense where none is required. When recollections tell of abandoned burial tepees over abandoned camp sites such that they range in scope from 3 miles beyond the river to 6 miles up the converging creek the other side, it doesn't require a rookie mathematician, a miniature geologist, an ancient archaeologist or any other science to tell us what was going on there. Phantom teepee's pffft.... |
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Post by rosebud on Aug 5, 2011 7:51:44 GMT -6
McDougall said he saw 3 Indians in ONE tepee...Where do you come up with the other 2 tepees? McDougall only has one and even you say it is in the same location as Benteen, by the mileage they give.
Still waiting for those other tepees to magically appear.
Yes I have read Gray. Don't think he was at the battle. And I know for a fact that he never saw any tepee at all. He can't make up his mind on who to believe so he GIVES us 3 tepees.
Benteen, Reno, Mcdougal.....They all went down the same creek. There is no reason that about 300 men would not talk about a second or third lone tepee unless there was no second or third lone tepee.
So this is easy. All you need to do is show where even ONE of these men said they saw more than ONE lone tepee.
It should sound something like this. After went a little farther we came upon ANOTHER lone tepee. Or, we came upon the second LONE TEPEE.
Jag. this is not just aimed at you. Feel free to get all the help you need. There are over 1000 signed up on this board. Get them all to help you.
RB
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jag
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Post by jag on Aug 5, 2011 9:22:50 GMT -6
McDougall said he saw 3 Indians in ONE tepee...Where do you come up with the other 2 tepees? McDougall only has one and even you say it is in the same location as Benteen, by the mileage they give. Still waiting for those other tepees to magically appear. Yes I have read Gray. Don't think he was at the battle. And I know for a fact that he never saw any tepee at all. He can't make up his mind on who to believe so he GIVES us 3 tepees. Benteen, Reno, Mcdougal.....They all went down the same creek. There is no reason that about 300 men would not talk about a second or third lone tepee unless there was no second or third lone tepee. So this is easy. All you need to do is show where even ONE of these men said they saw more than ONE lone tepee. It should sound something like this. After went a little farther we came upon ANOTHER lone tepee. Or, we came upon the second LONE TEPEE. Jag. this is not just aimed at you. Feel free to get all the help you need. There are over 1000 signed up on this board. Get them all to help you. RB And even after your own examination of the facts 1 into 3, 3 into one you still don't get it do you? Hell I don't care if you'd believe the moon was made of blue cheese. Or that there was just one tepee over where Reno attacked. Or that there was just one casualty, ONE, produced from all that firing at the Rosebud and one death producing one tepee. You'd like to think that they all, like homogeneous milk, all rid of germs and packed neatly in a single carton, moved down Reno creek neat and tidy. All together. And they all. At the same exact moment in time. And they all at the same exact place. Looked up and through ooh's and ahhh's and the shock of such an unseemly sight proudly proclaimed "oh look a lone tepee". Such theatrics are for the movies and reinactors wishing it were true. |
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Post by rosebud on Aug 5, 2011 9:34:43 GMT -6
2nd, the so called morass has never been identified to the satisfaction of all serious students of this battle.
jag
I like that. What you really mean is this. If you agree with me, you are a serious student of the battle.
Peter Thompson has led many serious students astray. Serious students can make just as many mistakes by the choice of who to believe and who to dismiss. That's the beauty of the Custer battle. Even a rookie with his first book thinks he is a serious student.
RB.
Another multiple post just for you jag. You should know I follow no rules. I will probably need to make more posts before you discover those other lone tepees.
Serious students would have already found a soldier that sees more than one lone tepee. Other serious students would not waste their time looking because they know there was only one lone tepee.
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jag
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Post by jag on Aug 5, 2011 9:50:10 GMT -6
2nd, the so called morass has never been identified to the satisfaction of all serious students of this battle.
jagI like that. What you really mean is this. If you agree with me, you are a serious student of the battle. Peter Thompson has led many serious students astray. Serious students can make just as many mistakes by the choice of who to believe and who to dismiss. That's the beauty of the Custer battle. Even a rookie with his first book thinks he is a serious student. RB. Another multiple post just for you jag. You should know I follow no rules. I will probably need to make more posts before you discover those other lone tepees. Serious students would have already found a soldier that sees more than one lone tepee. Other serious students would not waste their time looking because they know there was only one lone tepee. Look RB before this starts getting out of hand, and you get your panty hose all full of holes and mad as hell about it. Maybe you should try researching where the term "lone tepee" came from in the first place. The RCOI's reference to it came early in the questioning and references to it was made and clarified on days 3 and 4, they hung their hat on 4 more than 3, so take that as your guide. Although even then they knew there wasn't one by what was being testified to. |
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Post by bc on Aug 5, 2011 17:09:29 GMT -6
I guess Jag can count me as one of the thousand with him on the tipis.
Doran in his book lists three tipis citing Ray Meketa & Thomas Bookwalter's book, Search for the Lone Tepee", published in 1983.
Lone tipi #1 - 1.3 miles west of the South Fork junction it was on the north/right of the troop's trail but on the south/left bank of Reno Creek. Center of Section 18 of the topo. This is the one where the Ree Scouts first arrived with Varnum, counted coup on the lodge cover and then entered it and ate some of the food stores.
Lone tipi # 2 - Doran calls this the burning lodge/burial tipi which is about .8 mile southwest of the Hartung crossing and a couple miles further down the creek from lone tipis #1 & #3. It was on the left/south bank of the North Fork of Reno Creek partly obscured in a small side drainage ravine to the northwest of the "Big Flat" where villages had camped the day before the Rosebud fight. He refers to this tipi as the one used in RCOI. This is where the Rees were threatened to be dismounted by Custer if they didn't go forward. It had brush piled around the perimeter and later the Co. F foragers set it on fire. It would be just a little northeast of the center of section 12 of the topo (in the next township west of the the one that the other tipis are in).
Lone tipi # 3 - The Crow's lone tipi. This would have been on the north side of Reno Creek up towards the White Rocks area partways up to where Mitch Bouyer and the Crows had an observation point further north from it. This is about 3/4 of a mile north of Lone Tipi #1 but in Section 7 of the topo. It is just below the cliffs.
bc
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Post by bc on Aug 5, 2011 17:24:09 GMT -6
See my above post on the lone tipis that won't show up in the prior 30 because it was too long and errored out when I posted it. I waited a while before using the back button and the post went ahead and posted but didn't show up in the previous 30.
bc
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Post by rosebud on Aug 5, 2011 20:50:39 GMT -6
BC and jag
Now I can tell you one thing.....I am not mad about anything. No reason to be mad.
I just ask a simple question that no one has been able to answer. Nothing more than that.
If you guys want 5 lone tepees. Thats fine with me.
If you want to say that they were all accurate on there estimates of distance.....You should get about 300 lone tepees.
I have not seen in the RCOI where they let it be known they are talking about one specific lone tepee. I would just think they would take care of that problem if it existed.
They should say something like....How far was the lone tepee that was the farthest to the East or something like that.
Or how far was it from the closest lone tepee by the river.
They just ask about the lone tepee.
To me this just means that everyone is on the same page and they all know there is only one lone tepee.
Heck you can have as many as you want. When I find evidence that there were more, I will change and join you.
RB
Almost forgot .....About the only thing writers use the lone tepee for is to either give Benteen credit for going fast enough or by using a different lone tepee so they can say he was going to slow.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 5, 2011 21:24:41 GMT -6
What's amazing is that neither the recorder nor Reno's attorney nor ANYone said at any point when all these tipi locations and various distances were being tossed about....."Wait a second...., didn't you just say" or "that doesn't remotely correspond to ......."
And nobody in the papers said anything about the conflicting tales that I've read. None of the officers, journalists, nor presiding officers seem alert to this.
To me, this speaks to the fact there was no remote collusion between officers because they so rarely agree on anything. That's not unusual in the reading I've done about hearings on battle performance. That's not a claim of vast research, but I've done some.
It also speaks to the fact nobody expected anything better, because it's not commented upon whatever. Apparently battle is confusing at best and more so when recalled over the years. It's not like there was a memorable geologic feature that stuck in memory to frame recollections, like say if had a Pompey's Pillar where Weir Point is. In fact, the LBH site looks like much of the upper prairie.
It strikes me that time, distance, and anything beyond general layout weren't all that important to anyone. Everyone agreed the MacGuire Map was wrong - and in so many ways, not excluding a missing Sharpshooter Ridge - but they all cheerfully kept using it since it's what they had.
I still think that the claims of multiple tipis (the existence of such would not surprise) would get more regard if anyone mentioned more than one. The descriptions are off, surely, but I think it more due to post combat letter writing and report writing sessions and people asking 'How far to the river was that tipi?'
And I can't help but think that Martin had hardwired the standard location of the tipi because his mileages are roughly dead on, and he had not passed another one. That, or he understood by the singular article "the" that the tipi referred to was the one he had previously mentioned.
I'm curious what AZ and Zekesgirl have to say about this - being the only ones to have ridden the trail and Benteen's scout.
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Post by rosebud on Aug 5, 2011 23:31:58 GMT -6
RCOI----------RENO-------pg500 Q. How many companies did he have, and what direction did he take? A. He had 3 companies, H. D. and K, and went over to the left of me; over to the hills and was very soon out of sight, The other two columns con- tinued moving on opposite banks of the stream until we got down within sight of the Indian tepee that has been referred to. I can't tell the dis- tance. We were moving almost parallel, when the comanding officer beckon- ed me with his hat to cross over to the bank on which he was. The crossing was a little difficult, so that when I got on that side, the battalion was somewhat scattered; and I was about opposite the rear of the column command& ed by General Custer. I there received an order from Lieut. Cook to move my command to the front0 When I got up there, there was a tumult among the Indians that were with us as scouts. They were stripping themselves and preparing for a fight. I afterwards understood that they would not go forward and Gen. Custer had ordered them to j- i've up their guns .and horses. I moved forward in accordance with the orders received from Lieut. Cook, to the head of the column. Soon after that Lieut, Cook came to me and said "Gen. Custer directs you to take as rapid a gait as you think prudentand charge the village afterwards, and you will be supported by the whole outfit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That is just how it comes out when I copy and paste you can find it on page 500 digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/History/History-idx?type=turn&id=History.Reno&entity=History.Reno.p0525&isize=textThe only reason I am using this is to show that you don't need to take the Benteen side trip to find out all about the lone tepee or the lone tepees take your choice. There is a public road that goes up Reno creek and anyone can go look for them self. No charge, take a look for yourself any time you go to the battlefield. You can also decide which morass you want to use. Take the time to do this, its easy and free. Just be sure to stay on the road. RB |
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jag
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Post by jag on Aug 6, 2011 5:10:09 GMT -6
I have not seen in the RCOI where they let it be known they are talking about one specific lone tepee. If you are looking for it in the RCOI, there is only one place that I know of where it exists. The one, and only one place where it occurred that any of them, from the top down, at those proceedings, mention it by any name resembling this quote "lone tepee" is Lt. Edgerly pg 388. And it's not the tepee you think it is. Q. From that point of separation, describe the march of Capt. Benteen's column up to the time it joined Major Reno's command on the hill; and state everything that transpired during that march that came to your knowledge. A. We moved off in the direction ordered, I judge in about a mile distant we came to very high bluffs. Captain Benteen sent Lieut. Gibson to the top of them . I think he had some men with him and was ordered to report what he saw. He came back and reported that he saw more bluffs and no Indians. We skirted along under those bluffs, and I think Lieut, Gibson went to the top of the bluff four times while going about six miles. One time when he came back, a messenger came with an order to Captain Benteen from Gen. Custer, but I don't know what it was. We went on about two miles further or more, when another messenger came and spoke to Capt.Benteen. Then we kept on and from that time made no further effort to go to the left, as the reports from Lieut. Gibson were every time that the country was very broken and no Indians to be seen. We kept along down, skirting the hills, and finally into the valley; there were some foot hills between us and the valley the pack train was going down. We went on that way to the watering place, which was about 7 or 8 miles from where we started which was about half way to where we found Major Reno. We watered our horses hurriedly there and went on. When we had gone about a mile, Trumpeter Martin came along with the written message to Capt. Benteen, signed by Lt. Cook as Adjutant for Gen. Custer. That order was shown to Capt. Weir and myself. It was to the effect "we have struck a big village, hurry up and bring up the packs", and signed by W. W. Cook, and then a P. S. "Bring up the packs". The remark was made by some one, either by Capt. Weir or myself, that he could not possibly want us to go for the packs, as Capt. McDougall was there and would bring them up. There was no halt or delay, but we went on, Capt. Benteen putting the order in his pocket. About a mile or two from there, we came to a lone tepee burning. As this command moved along Capt, Benteen and myself looked into it and saw a dead Indian in it. We then went to the head of the column again- after we passed that tepee we saw Indians off to our right on points, which we afterwards found were our own scouts watching the result of the battle. 1 supposed at the time they were hostiles. When we came to within about a mile of where Major Reno crossed the river, we saw mounted men in the bottom. We could not see whether they were Indians or white men. About half a mile from the crossing, we saw a body of men going over the bluffs. Some one said they were Indians - someone else said "I don't know", in a doubtful way. We went on towards the crossing, and there saw an Indian scout named Half Yellow Face, and he beckoned us to come to the right and we did so., and the Indians commenced firing at us from the bottom. None of them did us any harm. A few of the bullets struck at our horses feet. We went up about half a mile and found Major Reno on top of the hill with his command. |
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 6, 2011 5:59:56 GMT -6
There are arguable foothills from where the scout turned north to Ash Creek where the train was. Don't see the importance here for the italics and underline. That's all roughly correct. He's off after that. He's wrong about the sequence of the tipi, is all.
It's odd to apply more surety to the testimony than the participants or the court did.
What soldier said under oath there was MORE than one tipi encountered?
One of the things that's always annoyed about this is that the standard level of memory lapses and errors that occur all the time in combat and trauma are viewed as unique and evidence of some mass error or plot with the LBH. CLEARLY, the Army and the soldiers were not feeling guilty or remiss in not having noted the distances or the time or the geography in great detail. Unlike the CW, there were no roads, nothing unique to the area to fix attention and be used as reference. Just big bloody sky and a river than looked like every other western landscape or close enough that after a short time things melded together.
That seems to have been known and accepted.
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