Holy simoly
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Timing of events is straight forward to assemble and requires but reliance upon the myriad tribal accounts placing the start of Reno's assault on the village at mid-day. Midday on June 25th 1876 occured with the sun directly over head, at 13.20ish. The mathematics that produces that exact time, have not changed or altered in anyway since June 25th 1876.
Gen Terry commanded the Department of Dakota. General Crook commanded the Department of the Platte. Simple study shows that HQ's and departments occupied the same Longitude, differing in latitude. Terry & Crook kept the same time, regardless of Chicago, Washington or even Greenwhich. That is the simplicity of it. For benefit of peculiarity, Bismarck, Fort A. Lincoln complies. As an anecdote, June 21st was the summer solstice. A watch captured by the Hunkpapas during the fight with Crook's column, gave the time to be 1pm, when Deeds father arrived at the river shouting warning across the water to the Minnieconjou Lazy White Bull amongst others, that his son had been killed by soldiers.
Here is the kind of jumble that associates itself to events of the battle -
'[White Bull] heard the man across the river, the man had his bay with him and the boy was killed, and this was about three miles from the camp. The boy's name was Deeds [AKA Trouble or Big Trouble]. Brown Arse [AKA Brown Back or Brown Ass] was the boy's father.6 [Note: Drags The Rope said Brown Back was Deed's older brother, not his father.] After Three Bears was shot, Dog with Horns was shot.7
6 - Identification of these two tribesmen, and the reconstruction of their activities on June 25, is complicated by a mass of conflicting evidence. A careful screening of the available evidence seems to suggest that they were father and son, and members of the Sans Arc Lakotas. The old man is variously identified by the picturesque English names of Brown Ass, Brown Back, and Pants, while the young boy was called either He is Trouble, Plenty of Trouble, Business, Deed or Deeds. Both of these men were seen near the divide on the morning of June 25 by Lt. Charles A Varnum. Yet, only the father, Brown Back, would return to the camp sites in the valley-his ten-year-old son was mysteriously slain before reaching the safety of the Indian village. See Hardorff, "Custer's Trail to Wolf Mountains: A Reevaluation of Evidence," Custer and His Times. Book Two, pp. 110-11.
7 - 7 Dog with Horns was a young Minneconjou whose reckless conduct resulted in his death from a gunshot in front of Reno's retreating skirmish line. See White Bull Interview, (1932), notebook 24. The death of this Lakota was probably witnessed by the Ree, Young Hawk, who recalled years later that "one Dakota charged the soldiers very closely and was shot about sixteen feet from the line. He rode a sorrel horse with a bald face and his tail was tied [up] with a piece of red cloth." Libby, The Arikara Narrative, p. 96. In point of fact, White Bull heard across the river - From 'Voices of the American West', 'Respects Nothing' gives that the man bringing warning that soldiers were coming had a watch taken from Crook's dead which showed time to the indians. He states the battle began about 13:00 and ended 16:00. 'Respects Nothing' indicated these sun times correctly.
Amongst much, 'Respects Nothing' further indicates Water Rat Creek was named for an Oglala killed there.
"Custer came down on top of the ridge northeast of of Water Rat Creek.
He did not come to the river or directly attempt to.
He came over from that ridge to Calhoun Hill where the battle began."
Incredibly, Deeds aka Trouble or Big Trouble, He is Trouble, Plenty of Trouble, Business, is further referred to as Two Bears in LBH Warriors.pdf, using reference to Miller, Custer's Fall, p 3, 5 & 88.
That listing of fighters known to be present details the Hunkpapa Three Bears as wounded in valley fight – Died on Wood Louse Creek, June 27, 1876 – Some sources say Minnikojou. Hardorff, Hokahey, p 42; DeMallie, Sixth Grandfather, p 196. Three Bears is listed as aka................ Two Bears.
So - on the night before battle, Sitting Bull climbed to the bluffs, offered tobacco and willow to his God, prayed for his people and attended the congregation attending the death of Deed's grandmother. She was, I believe, Four Horn's mother or sister. Four Horns was Sitting Bull's uncle, the eldest brother of Sitting Bulls father. 'Four Horns' would give away the ponies and all the personal belongings of their grandmother who died before dawn that morning, as the all-night scalp dance continued. Deeds's uncle, Sitting Bull had gathered with the family around the deathbed. Little bear was l believe son of Gray Buffalo Woman and Lone Dog and Deeds father. This was the best I could research these topics to date, I would love the Hunkpapa to sort it out for me. At least one other Two Bears fought the battle, he was the Ogalala Three Bears - Mato-Yamani.
Thus with Minnieconjou Lazy White Bulls statement, 'Three Bears was killed down by where White Bull was.5'
5 - Three Bears was an elderly Minneconjou who died from the effects of a gunshot wound, received at the outset of Reno's attack in the valley. See White Bull Interview, (1932), notebook 24.So we have Stanley Vestal aka Walter Campbell, to actually sort it all out and for those who have worked with his files, I commiserate what truly is a labour of love and possibly lust. He knew as much about LBH as any person ever - but his notes are truly the nightmare from Tiffny's.
digital.libraries.ou.edu/whc/nam/collection.asp?cID=1224&sID=7 Personal correspondence (1897-1957); correspondence with Campbell's relatives (1822-1896); correspondence with publishers and literary agents (1920-1958); literary manuscripts (ca. 1914-1957); diaries, notebooks, and journals (1901-1926); and business papers (ca. 1925-1959) regarding Campbell's writings on the west, Indians, and Oklahoma, with emphasis on transportation, fortifications, cowboys, wars and battles, criminals and outlaws, and Indian chiefs, along with original Indian art by Carl Sweezy.
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The Western History Collections is a special collection within the University of Oklahoma Libraries system. Its purpose is to enhance the University Libraries general collection on the history of the American West; to support the research and teaching programs of the University of Oklahoma; and to provide opportunities for research through the acquisition, preservation, and access of materials relating to the development of the Trans-Mississippi West and Native American cultures.
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Fred expert in Reply #49 gives that - 'All of those things whittle down to a battle that lasted from about 1:35 PM (my time) for the first shots in the valley, to approximately 4:40 PM (my time) for the end of the Custer fighting. Three hours.'
The start of battle is very much more realistic than many people today accept. Applying my own + or _ 20 minutes rule of thumb, this is a realistic approach to events. I also old the view that the fight in the valley was of a longer endurance than is generally held today but accept firmly tht timings given by Reno's early reports must be accepted accurate and in fact sacrosanct. My reasoning here is straight forward - Reno's report to Terry was made at a time when the good major did not know, and could not expect, that no-one survived from Custer's command or that there had been no contact between Terry and Custer by messenger or scout. Reno put a brave face on his situation and hoped for the best. He almost certainly understood that Custer had perished, when the report was written but could not rule out survivors or communications from Custer having reached Terry. Thus, he was careful and as accurate as he could be.
I disagree with a three hour endurance for the Custer fight, assuming that is the thrust of '1:35 PM (my time) for the first shots in the valley, to approximately 4:40 PM'. My reasoning here stems from that battle stalwart Minneconjou Standing Bear's interview with John G. Neihardt.
After we wiped Custer out we started back in formation downhill, ten or fifteen riders abreast. At the mouth of the Muskrat Creek there was a little divide and before we crossed this creek we could see another band of soldiers here to help Custer. They began to fire on us then and everyone said: "Hurry!" and began to charge on them. Then they began to get on their horses as I looked out again. They retreated and I noticed two spades on the hill. When we got up there we shot at the soldiers but only got one of them. Then we all got on our horses and pursued the soldiers. After we shot one of the men we all got off and couped him.
Custer's command were done in by the time Edgerley was dismounted and skirmishing and this was in advance of Reno's movement forward with the remainder of the regiment. The discussion of Gerard's watch times does offer some apparently solid data to work with in regards the timing of fighting east of the river, but that of George Herendeen is equally important and was developed well by Whittaker early on in his study of the battle. Gerrard corrected his given times at the Reno Inquiry, where he and Reno had their own little battle underway and neither ws taking prisoners.
Gerard cannot be believed in respect his story of riding off to meet Lt. Cooke with a warning given to Custer. Gerard actually trips himself up with his own testimony on the matter. That does not detract from his time data, but his willingness to reconsider and alter his testimony, does. He was recalled to the witness stand, re-examined and altered times he gave.
There is very much more to get into, but the topic is trumpet calls and was it calls from Custer's Command that Gerard heard in the timber as Reno's command began retreat? No one will ever know. It is possible to test whether trumpet calls from Medicine Tale and the mouth of Deep Coulee can be heard in the timber where Gerard was.
I am going to broach the topic of Curley and poor 'judgements' which dispel his accounts of events. It is fact that he delivered news of Custer's defeat and death to Terry, early on the morning of the 26th. The other Crow scouts met Bradley, Curley went to Terry. We know this from Brisbin's letter to Godfrey, published by C.T. Brady in Indian Fights and Fighters; From Fred Server and from Curley himself.
This is a straight forward matter - Curly met Terry on the morning of 26th June and told him four times, that Custer was wiped out. Why this has become the mysterious non-fact that it is is truly mysterious. Of course, in Vanishing Race, Curly told the world that he carried a message to Reno in the valley. That isn't believed but does not stop it being true.
In 1872 James Coleman was a clerk for post traders at Fort Lincoln. Custer knew and trusted John Smith the appointed post trader for the expedition. Smith and Coleman were on Far West at Powder River with Grant Marsh, General Terry, Captain Baker and B Co. 6th Infantry. Coleman was put off to sell liquor and again at the Rosebud. Three pint canteens could be filled by order from Captain Baker at $1 a pint. Liquor was stored in 45 gallon barrels, finer brand bottles in casks.
Curly's arrival at 'Far West' is told Hanson's 'The conquest of the Missouri'; the story of the life and exploits of Captain Grant Marsh. Curley advised Terry of the defeat on the morning of the 26th June and was later sent with a message to the Far West. From Lt. Holmes Offley Paulding, Gibbon's MO, we know that
Gibbon joined Terry on the Far West, remaining ostensibly "for the purpose of conferring," but Paulding insisted that Gibbon stayed because he had colic. By the twenty-fifth, and after a day of ridge-walking far from the nearest source of water, Paulding informed Terry that the men with him could go no farther without a rest.'
Confusion in matters of Curley's movements are further complicated by an early morning sighting on the banks of the Big Horn ay Pease Bottom. From Pauldingand army medical records - ' As the column continued forward, more minor accidents and ailments required Paulding's attention, and he was himself briefly sick. One patient, a scout who had broken his collarbone, had to be retrieved six miles from camp; the doctor noted that in this case he "expended a lot of brandy" as well as ten grains of quinine. Another patient was suffering from acute rheumatism and a third from a severe sore throat. - Paulding, Diary, p. 17.
The letter's of officers such as Paulding dated July 8th, Patterson Hughes of 30th June and Lt. Gibson, provide interesting and real insight to the battle, as an example, Paulding understood events thus - 'as we learned them from these officers & from one of our Crow scouts named "Curly" who had been with Custer until the fight was over or nearly so (and who had escaped by mixing with Sioux after all the whites were killed but 5. one of whom was then wounded) were about as follows: on the 23rd struck a fresh trail of Indians moving and lit out after them instead of waiting as he should have done to strike when we should be near enough to help if it should be necessary. I dare say he thought his regiment capable of whipping any number of Indians (a common error) & wanted it all to himself. Anyhow he marched his regiment 75 miles in 36 hours, resting about 5 hours, so for 31 hours his men were in the saddle with but one interval. They were then, about 8 A. M. of the 25th, where they could see the smoke of a big Indian camp on the Little Horn and very soon after Custer, becoming satisfied that he was discovered, determined to attack at once so as to give them no chance to leave. He ordered Capt. Benteen with 4 companies to guard the pack train and proceed toward the bluffs, while he with 5 companies attacked from one end of the village, & Reno with I believe 3 companies was to charge down toward Custer from the other. Before making his final disposition he sent a scout ahead to find out where the tepees (lodges) were the thickest, as there was where he would charge.
The scout returned and it is said that when he reported told Custer with perfect terror that there were lodges as thick as the grass and begged him not to fight so many. Custer merely said with a laugh that he was glad they were all there. Then giving his orders to Reno & Benteen he left them. Where he charged from was very bad ground. From the summit of the bluff to the river was a slope of about 2 miles the village lying in the valley across the stream, in plain sight of the whole length of the slope. Custer & his men gave their yell & charged down for a ford. They did not strike it exactly, but had to move along a cut bank for some distance, under heavy fire from the timber opposite. Finally on reaching the ford they were met by an immense body of Indians fighting on foot. They crossed in the face of this terrible fire but were driven back, dismounted & put in one or two volleys, remounted & retreated alternately, until what was left of them reached the summit of the bluff. At this point they were met by another large body of Indians who had swept around behind them & here surrounded by about 2,500 or more warriors they fought to the death. Our Indian "Curly" says they began to fight before the sun was yet in the middle of the sky & when he got away it was nearly half behind the bluffs about 8 o'clock.
Those who find considerable faults that exist with the works of J.S. Gray, should find considerably more fault with the timings of events portrayed by W. A. Graham, who seriously lost the plot during the early 1920's and threw a huge monkey wrench into understanding of the advance to battle. Particularly in respect the location of the lone Tepee, which as we know from Peter Thompson was less than two miles from Reno Hill.
Private Thompson was a private, who went on to lead a full and productive life. He was a private and should be judged in that light. Which ever way his actions are viewed, it is actually a fool who ignores and derides his account, whether it is embellished or not. His account is entirely believable, full of verifiable facts throughout, and was found to be embarrasing by for example Walter Camp and therefore, Godfrey. He watched his company, his friends and comrades being wiped out and aimed his bitterness at Reno. His account of Benteen's charge from Reno Hill is most enlightening.
The Custer fight began with the attacks by Cheyennes who were east of the river as the five companies rode into Medicine Tail Creek. There began the Custer fight and elements of the command were manouvered to fend off that threat. The count of braves is given to be fifty men - Custer countered that threat to his flank and rear, the command came to a halt before reaching the river.
When Little Sioux climbed the bluffs with stolen Sioux ponies, he saw Custer's command under attack on the top of a hill. The trail up the bluffs was down river of Weir Point to afford that view. Private Thompson was beyond Reno Hill when he met the pony stealers. It is known from the Arikara's and Walter Camp that they met Thompson on the bluffs. Trumpeter Martin met either Thompson or Watson on his journey to meet Benteen and thus the account of Custer and a scout subsequently being at the river is rather hard to swallow, unlike the water which Thompson drank from his hat and which nearly drowned Watson as he dismounted into the water under fire when crossing into the village. They had shortly before seen a cavalry guidon fluttering in the wind beside a tepee and that can really only have been that recovered by Lt. DeRudio.
Initial contact with Custer's command occured when the bands including Wolf's Tooth and Big Foot attacked and were run off. When did this occur? There is a line of continuity from Lt. Varnum seeing Custer's command riding over the saddle in Weir's Ridge and the Cheyenne warrior John Two Moons seeing the cavalry approaching.
Custer arrived in Medicine Tale Creek, Cheyenne Braves attacked and so, what took place. Well, we know. We know exactly wat Custer would do from his report in August 1873 of a battle with...... Sitting Bull's Hunkpapa tribe.
In amongst all the lore developed since 1876, a several matters stand out to me as significant.
The relationship in time of Minieconjou White Bull coming upon the wounded Lame White Man in cavalry tunic is a significant marker of events that occured before the Crazy Horse chage onto and across Battle Ridge. Details of the attack in which the Cheyenne chief was injured are known.
Kuhlman's SSL is a topic of considerable and considered discussion which continues to confound and yet it should not. It has been turned into a jumble but there were at least 14 dead horses lieing with the the soldiers remains when the battleground was reported by Cherokee advocate's press article of 5 september 1877, after his visit of 25th July.
W.A. Graham visited the field in early August 1877 and documented the scene further in his book 'Adventures with Indians and game, or, Twenty years in the Rocky Mountains'. Whilst his conclusions are not clinical, his observation cannot be refuted or debased. His account is basically that told in the account gleaned by Maj. John D. Miles from Cheyennes who fought and published in September 1876, pre Whittaker.
Another problematical is Godfrey's spring. Was this the big slough or bayou, a point well known to all the northern Indians, per John D. Miles, in which many of his horses mired and sixty of his men were killed and afterwards dragged out by the Indians, and stripped of all valuables and generally scalped.
Cheyenne accounts leave little doubt that several fire fights were under way as elements of Custer's companies retreated towards Battle Ridge, and much to the chagrin of modernist revisionaries or whatever ilk, Curley was present and we know that from White Man Runs Him. We know also, inthat mattr of fact way of things, that the three Crow scouts took their drink of water after dark when they slipped out of Reno Hill, killed a Sioux warrior and took his horse and from whom Curley then recovered ammunition before heding off as well, to report to Terry next morning.
If there is a participant who is entirely ignored it is Rain in the Face, particularly his map and also Sitting Bull - who tells how the end of the fight came about. Runs the Enemy figures into this part of th fight and also Gall. The large bunch of warriors Benten reported vacating the valley to engage Custer. One truly has to wonder where he thought those warriors were riding off to.
Custer's approach to battle was rapid from the sighting of grey horse troop by Varnum, and Custer's fight began and continued from around the time that Reno's skirmish line opened its fire and was already ended when Standing Bear sighted and then engaged Edgerley's command. I believe that Peter Thompson put the period of time for the Custer fight at three some hours but of course as we all now know, Thompson was not the full bushell.
history.nd.gov/archives/manuscripts/military.html20034 Peter Thompson
Papers, 1914
Reminiscences entitled, "The Experience of a Private Soldier in the Custer Massacre," "Story of the Ree Scout," and a transcript of a letter from J.S. Smith to W.M. Camp concerning the Battle of the Little Big Horn. (3 items/1r/#16073)
Another of the ignorances visited upon the history of Lima Bravo is P.W. Norris's map which most assuredly indicates the flow of the river in the valley during the summer of 1877. I did some work on that document, comparing it to that used by E.S. Curtis, which was the 1891 US Geo Survey. It stands up and makes interesting comparison with the Rain in the Face sketch.
CLICK TO ENLARGE.
The Custer fight went on longer than most accept and finished earlier also.
Keogh's Swale is in defilade from Weir's Ridge and anywhere down river.
My interest in the bugle calls heard by Gerard stems from the simple logic that is aggressive military plays, concentrate your forces on the objective.
Was Reno to hold for Benteen to arrive and then attack at 2pm in concert with a strike by Custer from the east. Simple military logic and practice.
Custer did ride off on his own all the time and is as likely to have ben seen by Thompson at the river as not. That is all that can be said. Significant parts of the privates account stand entirely corroborated. That Sgt. Kanipe was more or less than he seems is a truly harsh accusation of the man and I would be interested to know how those thiking along those lines arrive at that conclusion. Three stripers were sent to Benteen carrying messages so it was not an usual occurence and from Thompson we know that Finkle was lagging behind the column and would have been riding a winded animal by the time he regained the command. That Kanipe was sent back from Reno Hill is complete rubbish. Just like Gerard meeting Cooke as Reno's column crossed the river.
The account of Curley being with Black Fox is also, a load of balderdash, once you sit contemplate it and likewise is Godfrey's recollection of Crow scouts running ponies back to the pack train. They were Arikara scouts and easily named from the Narrative.
Custer's battle doesn't make sense because it wasn'y a sensible battle. He didn't realise his mistake until after he was dead. As soon as he seperated his force, it was game over. That is because - they were unable to re-unite and that is the mattrer which haunts the history. It really is that simple and every military man, certainly experienced officers, know that to be the question to be assessed. Patterson Hughes addressed it in his letter of 30th Jun 1876 and entirely ducked the issues.
Sitting Bull and Runs the Enemy, tell how the encirclement came about, the Hunkpapa closed the door on Custer after they returned from the Reno fight. That was game over and that was Gall's thirty five minutes to finish the fight. 3.15 pm all over bar hunting down the strays which was done by encircling the entire hill and swarming over it as related by Two Moons. Frank Bennet Fiske's 'Taming of the Sioux carries an interesting account of the battle from an Ogalala warrior. Brown Back fought Keogh capturing horses and guidon and recognising Keogh's body in a scapula, before moving south to engage Edgerly/Reno.
Fiske served as an assistant steamboat captain prior to his lifelong work as a studio photographer, mostly associated with Fort Yates N.D. He learned the trade from S.T. Fansler, post studio photographer, and remained in Fort Yates to document the town, the Standing Rock Agency, and the changing ways of the frontier. Fiske was also a writer, and served for a time as a newspaper editor, and wrote a popular column carried in many newspapers. He was best known for his Indian photographs, which depicted everyday Indian life, as well as studio views.
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