|
Post by fred on Sept 8, 2011 14:54:04 GMT -6
... Girard claimed he had a watch on his person when in the timber... Ian, gerard was supposed to have had the best watch in the command. He had just had it repaired and cleaned prior to leaving FAL. His time references are generally pretty good, but his subjective references appear to be even better. Off the top of my head, I cannot remember any specific references he may have used, i. e., 2:15 PM, etc. Rather, he would say something like, "about 15 minutes." Those references are valuable in establishing specific times, but only when referenced with something more concrete. Benteen's officers were a little more accurate, but then the circumstances were different for them and there may actually have been one or two instances when you could envision someone popping out his pocket watch to check the time. With the exception of DeRudio in the timber, that would have hardly been the case with anyone in Reno's command. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Sept 8, 2011 14:59:55 GMT -6
Girard said he had a watch. He said he heard firing for the duration of two and a half hours. I don't doubt that he had the watch. What I do have doubts about is the idea that he accurately kept up with the parameters of time. I would think he would have had a lot more on his mind at the time than checking the watch to accurately record events. I do agree with you. Gerard has given us some of the best subjective times we have, i. e., times I have used to corroborate other times; and if I am not mistaken (without having to go back into this new thing I am working on), his 2 1/2-hours notation is very accurate. Again, do not quote me yet for I haven't double-checked it, but from the time of Reno's retreat to the end of the Custer fighting it was two hours, twenty minutes by my calculations... again, calculations driven by a myriad of other factors... and Gerard's 2 1/2 hours is very, very close, indeed. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Sept 8, 2011 15:04:46 GMT -6
In my opinion, the most reliable information about Curley's movements appears in the Marquis pamphlet, "Curly, The Crow" in which Marquis relates that Red Star the Arikira and Goes Ahead the Crow both state that they saw Curley with Black Fox the Arikira as Custer watched Reno begin his advance toward the village. Following this, Curley, with Black Fox, heads toward present day Busby. Other than that, Curley's stories have more twists and turns than Ariadne's Maze. I have not read that particular Marquis work, but it jibes with several other pieces of source material I have. I agree totally with you. What is also interesting to me is when we get into the other three Crows and their foray down river, then their hoof back to Reno Hill. When you start measuring distances and begin factoring in their concepts of speed and everything else that was going on, you come up with some very interesting conclusions, especially when you draw it out to their final destinations and what happened along the way. Interesting stuff. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Sept 8, 2011 15:22:25 GMT -6
I don't see the significance of watches.... The only relevent times are.....Noon...about the time they crossed the divide 4:20....on Reno hill and they don't even agree with what took place that caused them to remember this exact time. There is just no logical reason for anyone to be looking at their watch. I agree with you. Beyond the divide, the only story I believe-- up until some time on Reno Hill-- about someone looking at his watch, was in the case of DeRudio. He specifically told the RCOI that he pulled out his watch and kept checking it every 10 minutes or so. To me, that is the action of a very nervous individual, and if you break down DeRudio's testimony-- again, into some semblance of a "timing scenario"-- you can understand why. It is my opinion that DeRudio got a case of the "Kanipes," i. e., cold feet. He claimed to have grabbed some A Company men and went into the woods. And he did this of his own volition, without clearing it with Moylan. No A Company men ever came forward to verify DeRudio's claim, and furthermore, DeRudio said he did this just as the skirmish line was pulling back. He then said he spent 10 minutes in the timber before the retreat. If you read his claimed exploits in the timber, I would question that he spent only 10 minutes doing all these things, and I might suggest that, yes, he did them, but it took him a lot longer than a 10-spot. In my opinion, he got the chilly-foot rather early in the fracas, headed for some cover, and probably spent a good 20 minutes in the woods, nervously checking his watch every few minutes. The only other specific time I accept is the Godfrey-4:20, which is almost universally accepted by participants as the time the packs train finished arriving. That 4:20 can be reached subjectively by reading and computing times or time-lengths given us by others. Of course, John Gray used that 4:20 as the Benteen arrival time, but there is no historical justification for his doing so. That is one of my main issues with Gray, because Godfrey eventually said it was the arrival time, but only after some 50+ years had gone by and he was constantly lobbied by W. A. Graham to do so. Yet that issue flies in the face of everything Godfrey had said previously, as well as what so many others alluded to. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by "Hunk" Papa on Sept 9, 2011 15:58:07 GMT -6
What is also interesting to me is when we get into the other three Crows and their foray down river, then their hoof back to Reno Hill. When you start measuring distances and begin factoring in their concepts of speed and everything else that was going on, you come up with some very interesting conclusions, especially when you draw it out to their final destinations and what happened along the way. Interesting stuff. Best wishes, Fred. From what I have read, it appears that Bouyer and the Crows did not see Reno's retreat so could not have advised Custer of that event, so their various perambulations are useful guidelines. Hunk
|
|
|
Post by rosebud on Sept 9, 2011 17:23:23 GMT -6
Fred, I have also looked at DeRudio and his watch story. Could it be true....Possibly. The only question I have is ....What good would looking at your watch every 10 minutes do? That watch can do him no good at all. I could see him checking his pistol or rifle every few minutes to make sure they were ready but not his watch.' DeRudio liked to toot his own horn and was well known for his glorious stories of battles past. I tend to believe his stories but I just tone them down a little bit and they can work.
DeRudio has a good watch. It makes him important if he can remember to use it. DeRudio likes to be important, so he said he used his watch that kept perfect time because it had just been repaired.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Sept 9, 2011 22:12:17 GMT -6
Fred, I have also looked at DeRudio and his watch story. Rosebud, As usual-- and like DC, "wild," and "Hunk"-- you have cut through the guff and discovered the plum. This is precisely the issue with DeRudio. If you were to analyze the entire spectrum of what I would call "evidence," regarding the valley fighting, you would have to reach the conclusion that Reno's men spent considerably more time there than the usually attributed 10 minutes before the skirmish line pulled back into the timber. That whole idea is an illusion carried forward over the years by even the best historians. The various narratives contradict it. If you read what DeRudio had to say, it doesn't fit with a serious analysis. He claimed to have brought some A Company men into the woods moments before the skirmish line pulled back to Gerard's "brow." Then he claims to have gone from one point to another; he claimed to be sitting there when suddenly he saw Custer and two other guys up on the bluffs; then we have the whole guidon incident... and all of this in a dense, underbrush-strewn woodland that admittedly could only be traversed using "buffalo" trails. In 10 minutes? It is my opinion that DeRudio did, in fact, leave the valley within a 10-minute time-frame of his arrival there, but he didn't bring A Company troops with him, and he moved into the woods because he got cold feet in the valley. There isn't the slightest shred of independent evidence I have ever been able to uncover about anything DeRudio did in the valley, so whatever happened didn't seem to be recorded by anyone. Yet we have Moylan talking about Reno; Hare talking about Varnum; Varnum talking about Wallace; Wallace talking about Moylan... all intertwined. And DeRudio...? Nothing. That leads me to believe he did get cold feet; he went into the timber real early in the fighting; and the constant checking of his watch was a nervous reaction to fear. I have seen it happen before, in combat; the nervous little "tics" to take one's mind off the fear. If we lengthen the amount of time the skirmish line was in the valley, we accomplish a number of things. We bring meaning to LT Maguire's observations; we better understand the M Company scouts in the timber; we better understand the narratives of several M Company men when they said they moved west initially, not north; we can make sense of SGT Culbertson's observation; and we can better understand and justify all of DeRudio's activities in the timber. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Sept 9, 2011 22:18:29 GMT -6
From what I have read, it appears that Bouyer and the Crows did not see Reno's retreat so could not have advised Custer of that event, so their various perambulations are useful guidelines. Totally agree. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by "Hunk" Papa on Sept 10, 2011 8:16:24 GMT -6
It is my opinion that DeRudio did, in fact, leave the valley within a 10-minute time-frame of his arrival there, but he didn't bring A Company troops with him, and he moved into the woods because he got cold feet in the valley. Best wishes, Fred. I do not disagree that DeRudio left the skirmish line early because he may have lost his nerve, but I still believe he did take some 'A' men into the timber with him, perhaps as a smoke screen for his early departure. The reason I hold that view is that it is entirely feasible that his move, with those men, caused the confusion which led to the withdrawal of the skirmish line, probably by order of Moylan. Sincerely, Hunk
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 10, 2011 8:20:35 GMT -6
Did the Indians make a play for the horses, and DeRudio took him self and half of his Company to flush them out. Ian.
|
|
|
Post by rosebud on Sept 10, 2011 9:42:21 GMT -6
Did the Indians make a play for the horses, and DeRudio took him self and half of his Company to flush them out. Ian
Yes, Ian that is possible....Where did you find testimony to support that idea? What have you read that leads you to this conclusion or even that question.
Is it possible that you are just taking a shot in the dark with nothing to support that conclusion?
Ian....Anything is possible in a vacuum, the large picture is where you start separating possibility's into probabilities.
I hate to say this Ian but I will. You can't be on 2 or 3 Custer boards and learn anything about this battle. You are going to have to take the time to read the source books and make up your own mind.
If I was just starting to learn about Custer and listened to Clair, I would end up using his ideas and would probably be as happy with my conclusions as Fred is with his.
I no longer even look at the other board because the conclusions I have formed from my previous book learning and visiting with other Custer historians do not come close to the views shared by the Hussar and Keogh on the other board.
My views do however come close to the same conclusions given by DC, Fred and others on this board.
The reason we argue is because of the "small" points that we see differently.
Ian, to put this in a different light, We can't teach you anything, we can only point you to books that will allow you to draw your own conclusion.
Now I will say this again. Custer used Gibbons scouts. To learn about these scouts and WHY they might or might not be of help.
PLEASE .....Anyone.......Read one of these 3 books Best book......To the Edge Of Darkness.....Willert 2nd best....but cheaper......March of the Montana Column.....Bradley 3rd.....Not as good....Adventures on the Western Frontier....Major General John Gibbon.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 10, 2011 10:04:36 GMT -6
Rosebud: I would agree that the devil is in the details.
For Ian: Apply the KISS principle and you would be well served. If something smalls like fresh baked bread, in other words if it fits within a logical framework, it probably is. If it smells like dead fish, like damsel in distress rescues, it probably is just that dead fish. Dead fish in my book also includes exact observation in the midst of combat. They can happen of course but usually a moment of complete rationality in the midst of bedlam, cannot be pinned to exacting perameters.
On the other board, amidst the quoting of Sherlock Holmes, there is a discussion of Korn's horse breaking loose, with him on it, crossing the river at Ford B riding through the village, including the hostiles facing Reno and joining Reno, presumably between timber and bluffs, and surviving. I am not saying that did not happen. What I am saying is that I would not have liked to be with him when it did. Now the point here is that anyone who would base an entire model on this, to the exclusion of all others, is likely to have their butts handed to them by the laws of probability.
Rosebud: I have my local library doing an inter-library search for "To the Edge of Darkness" This is the latest of several times you have mentioned it and my request has been in for a couple of weeks now. Is this book rare and hard to find or only expensive?
|
|
|
Post by fred on Sept 10, 2011 10:13:02 GMT -6
... I still believe he did take some 'A' men into the timber with him, perhaps as a smoke screen for his early departure. Hunk, Upon reflection, I would not disagree with you on this point. In fact, you make a sound, rational case for it. I do believe, however, that the skirmish line was brought back in better order than most think and I have read enough of Hare, Moylan, and Varnum to believe it was ordered back by Reno when he either saw or was told about the threat to M Company's flank. To my way of thinking, Reno was still well in control at this point and doing a credible job. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Sept 10, 2011 10:22:15 GMT -6
Did the Indians make a play for the horses, and DeRudio took him self and half of his Company to flush them out. No... I do not believe this to be the case. First of all, how would DeRudio know the horse-holders were in any trouble? Second, how many Indians would there have to be in the timber at that time to threaten the A and G Company holders? There had to be about 20 troops holding those horses. Third, Moylan makes no mention of any such thing and Moylan was the CO. DeRudio wouldn't have dared to remove men from Moylan's skirmish line; in fact, DeRudio should have been assisting Moylan and since A Company had to compensate for Reno's removal of at least half of "G," I doubt seriously Moylan would have allowed more troops to leave the line. If anything, DeRudio may have grabbed a couple of laggers-behind and made some excuse about checking on the nags. It is sort of like Quincannon has said... if it smells like a dead fish, it probably is. DeRudio's testimony here doesn't scent-out too good in my book. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 10, 2011 11:20:35 GMT -6
Rosebud, Willets two books: To the Edge Of Darkness Little Big Horn Diary Are a rare as Hen's teeth over here, as I said before, they wanted over a Hundred pounds for one, and seeing that we are in the process of moving home, I cannot afford this cost. The Richard Fox book is in the bag, I will order The March of the Montana Column this week. BTW: Rb I joined this site first and I have never been on another LBH board before this, I may have joined the other board, but that was for other reasons which I have told Chuck about, Clair and the bunch over there all have there own models (as they call them) but I am still open minded and as the old saying goes, no one is 100% on what happend. Ian.
|
|