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Post by herosrest on Feb 20, 2010 15:02:18 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Feb 20, 2010 15:04:04 GMT -6
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Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 20, 2010 16:08:53 GMT -6
First, WCF does not state as fact that the two cemetery photographs are anything but photographs taken in 1886, and wonders if they are valid at all in reference to the battle. To imply otherwise means you either haven't read it or you're fabricating. Your entire premise is false. That said, his offering proves their location better than yours. At least you're not trying to pretend a chasm is a building.
Second, how good was Barry's Sioux? Everything I've read suggests Gall had a translator, and that he and Godfrey felt the two of them directly communicating by gesture was more accurate than what the translator provided. To gussy such up as 'data' is overboard.
Third, you cannot see nor understand that a picture at ground level that includes geographic features two miles away or so cannot really be compared to another picture taken from a different location and angle of the same features from sorta the same general area as proof of squat.
Fourth, your photos are much clearer than the ones in WCF, so either they did a bad job in printing, you obtained originals, or you've altered them. Even so, again, they don't support your contentions.
Nonetheless, WCF does not claim the photos prove much of anything.
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Post by wolfgang911 on Feb 22, 2010 16:53:23 GMT -6
give herosrest at least the credit for the extraterrestrial work he is doing here, making the layout for a lbh magazine on the way
gall was pretty good in gesture giving the 2.30 time of the day btw
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Post by herosrest on Feb 23, 2010 15:53:33 GMT -6
The translater was a guy called Server, he was with Terry on Far West 22nd June '76 and helped bury a dozen troopers found in the river 3 miles down stream of Reno's entrenchment. He was a two striper in 2nd Cavalry and served as orderly to a general or two during CW.
Later in life, after the army - he........ lived near the Crow reservation and............. he ran the Little Big Horn HOTEL -Lima Bravo Hotel. ;D
Server knew 'Many People' - he may be ott - some of it may not be genuine - he is not unique in that respect on this topic.
Server was not to the liking of some at the 10th anniversary and they left him behind. Godfrey may or may not have been good with sign - l believe he was not since he and Gall actually played cowboys and indians and pointed a lot. Godfrey was no 'White Hat' - Lt. Philo Clarke wrote a book on the sign language and recovered a map from Oglalla informants whilst he was indian agent at the camp they surrendered to after LBH. He knew Crazy Horse and ate his dog.
Godfrey's route for right wings advance stemmed from a very faint trail he remembered seeing 10 years before - however Lt. Varnum actually saw the column on the bluffs as they rode over the ridge - Weir Ridge - and bye passed Cedar Coulee - whicjh is a modern day invention to cater for the flurry of sightings on the bluff. The Crow Scouts were there while Reno skirmished - Custer was gone. The Arikara scouts were there while Reno skirmished - Custer was gone - his whole column also.
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Post by herosrest on Feb 23, 2010 15:55:00 GMT -6
here's a bonus page for ..... who knows! be well.
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Post by bc on Feb 23, 2010 22:51:40 GMT -6
Herosrest, I am trying to follow these montages of yours.
Doesn't the first one stand for Gall moving up Deep Coulee and then around and behind Calhoun Hill? I'm not sure there is a great amount of dispute that Gall crossed at the medicine tail ford and went up Deep Coulee.
bc
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Post by herosrest on Feb 27, 2010 13:33:37 GMT -6
Hi, one of the few arguments that does not occur is Gall's route to battle. My point concerns the skirmish line photo's of 1886, which are ascribed to areas near the national cemetary in 'Where Custer Fell' and therefore qualify combat in that area.
Gall could not view those areas whilst fighting from below the horizon in the Calhoun sector. He simply could not view that area of terrain - therefore the skirmish lines were not in the area of National Cemetary and visitor center.
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Post by herosrest on Feb 28, 2010 11:15:19 GMT -6
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 1, 2010 7:14:48 GMT -6
One would think that if it is a true attempt to duplicate anything that happened you would start with cavalry troopers and carbines using proper spacing.
"Gall put 35 minutes" not 32, 34, 36,37 This is more precise than any soldier that was known to carry a watch.
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Post by bc on Mar 1, 2010 12:45:18 GMT -6
Ok, Herosrest. You have a little explaining to do for dummies like me. You have the Barry skirmish line lined up from Calhoun Hill towards the west. But then you have them firing over the gulley at Battle Ridge. Who were they firing at on Battle Ridge? What was Keogh and his men doing that were down in that gulley to the right of the where the Barry soldiers were firing?
You indicate Custer was ambushed and that he did not back up from Cemetery Ridge. If so, then where did he back up from? He couldn't be backing up from Calhoun Hill along battle Ridge to LSH cause you have Gall and Barry indicating Calhoun's skirmish line was firing towards Custer's troops on LSH. Since Gall came up Deep Coulee, he would be behind the Barry skirmish line so I don't know why they would be firing at Battle Ridge instead Gall coming up Calhoun hill from the south. Can you explain this for me?
Am I correct that you have Crow King moving up Deep Ravine and Crazy Horse going around and up through Cemetery Ravine north of LSH? If so what soldiers did Crow King run into?
Anxiously awaiting your reply.
bc
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Post by herosrest on Mar 2, 2010 10:22:18 GMT -6
Hi bc. I'm not running theory.
The pictures are not of skirmish that occured in the cemetary area, Galls records indicate a column in manouver and later the fighting. Barry's skirmish pictures were shot at the Calhoun end of the ridge. The why's and wherefores of how that came about is very interesting - counter attacks - a dash for commanding terrain - supporting advance or retreat - covering manouver or retreat that slammed into advances - i'm a duck
Those photographs are not anything to do with the National Cemetary and visitor centre area of the battlefield as assigned in 'Where Custer Felt". The book is a bible of LBH and is a seriously, serious work, which is taken seriously.Assessment of those Barry pictures is flawed and led to acceptance of organised cavalry fighting in the area of the cemetary and visitor centre. Re-inforcing the 'John Stands in Timber' view of events handed down by 'Wolf's Tooth'. Cheyenne folk lore is democratic.
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Post by bc on Mar 2, 2010 11:04:22 GMT -6
Hi bc. I'm not running theory.
The pictures are not of skirmish that occured in the cemetary area, Galls records indicate a column in manouver and later the fighting. Barry's skirmish pictures were shot at the Calhoun end of the ridge. The why's and wherefores of how that came about is very interesting - counter attacks - a dash for commanding terrain - supporting advance or retreat - covering manouver or retreat that slammed into advances - i'm a duck
Those photographs are not anything to do with the National Cemetary and visitor centre area of the battlefield as assigned in 'Where Custer Felt". The book is a bible of LBH and is a seriously, serious work, which is taken seriously.Assessment of those Barry pictures is flawed and led to acceptance of organised cavalry fighting in the area of the cemetary and visitor centre. Re-inforcing the 'John Stands in Timber' view of events handed down by 'Wolf's Tooth'. Cheyenne folk lore is democratic. I understand the cemetery/Calhoun hill issue and your problems with the events from the "Where Custer Fell" book from your montage about the cemetery. I've read the book and never considered it a treatise on battle theory, nor do I think the authors meant for it to be a battle treatise theory, but basically a book with pictures using "one" of the prevailing theories as a guide. I do not know what JSIT and Wolf Tooth say about the battle so you can enlighten me here. Question still remains is why do you and Barry have the 86 firing line firing from Calhoun and at battle ridge and towards Custer on LSH? You aren't saying Calhoun killed Custer and Keogh are you cause you now have Barry's soldiers shooting in their direction? Gall would have been behind that firing line so that doesn't make sense either. Please explain in terms us dummies can understand. You also wrote "The why's and wherefores of how that came about is very interesting - counter attacks - a dash for commanding terrain - supporting advance or retreat - covering manouver or retreat that slammed into advances". Would you please explain to me what counter attacks, what dashes, what advances, what retreats, and what covering manouvers, and what retreats slammed into advances. Any advance, retreat, or covering manouver has to have a starting place and ending place and then they have to be placed in chronological order. My strong points in school were math and logic. Put a series of events in order and I can perform the addition. You may have the whole battle figured out and be right, but you have to explain it to us guys who sat at the back of the class passing notes to the girls instead of listening to the English teacher. Thanks. I'll get out my abacus and slide rule while waiting for your answer. bc
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 3, 2010 6:12:41 GMT -6
Godfrey stated that the interpreter for Gall got it wrong at LBH and had to do the translations later.
"We were unfortunate in not have an efficient and truthful interpreter on the field at the reunion."
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 3, 2010 6:43:53 GMT -6
In Reply 1 you show a comparison of two slopes. If you move right of that slope in the infantry formation picture there is a sharp peak that is not in the comparison color version. At best the color picture does not have enough detail to make the comparison. If that point is missing then it is a wrong angle or wrong location.
The troopers appear to be closer to the background in the black and white as compared to the color version.
AZ Ranger
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