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Post by wolfgang911 on Jun 4, 2009 16:34:19 GMT -6
Does anyone think the Sioux (Lakota) ever lost more Warriors in any battle, against Euro-Americans, other Native tribes, or even fighting among themselves, in its entire history as a people, as they did at Little Big Horn? Clair yes, at wounded knee, allthough you can hardly called unarmed men warriors Once again conz you fall into your own trap ;D and you confirm the lakota (not dakota yanktonai on whitehill) were hardly ever inflicted big defeats, if not attacked on a treacherous way, like attacking a village with women and children on surprise. Which was actually what did your hero Custer and often forgotten for the sake of 7th cavalry nostalgics who think that sneaky surprise attacks on supposed unaware villages with mainly inncocent people that wished only to live their lives their way, are cool. well he got what he desserved  |
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Post by conz on Jun 4, 2009 18:49:05 GMT -6
Well, I think that they ALL got what they deserved, except for the children...they got what their parents deserved.
Custer and the 7th Cavalry got what it deserved at LBH by making a tactical mistake that allowed the Natives to kill a lot of them.
But as I pointed out, in this "victory," the Sioux and N. Cheyenne suffered a horrible tragedy as well, and their independence was soon ended as a result.
Whether the number was 60 or 200, they are still so devastating to these tribes that it was a Pyrrhic victory.
Clair
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Post by mackenzie on Jun 4, 2009 21:40:48 GMT -6
When folks start talking about who deserved what, I can't help thinking what William Munny told Little Bill in the movie Unforgiven:
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it."
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Post by conz on Jun 5, 2009 11:05:42 GMT -6
When folks start talking about who deserved what, I can't help thinking what William Munny told Little Bill in the movie Unforgiven: "Deserve's got nothing to do with it." LOL...sometimes, but sounds too liberal, for me. <g> I prefer to believe that you "reap what you sow." That you get what you deserve, and that you should treat people the way you want to be treated yourself. IOW, everything you do has consequences, and you are responsible for them. I don't even like "Custer died for our sins." For one, I'm not sure what that means, but two, Custer died due to his own mistakes. Had he not made them, he and a lot of Soldiers would probably have lived out that day. If you don't think you usually get what you deserve, you are relieved of responsibility for your actions, eh? Just a reflection...probably didn't deserve a diatribe. <g> Clair |
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Post by crzhrs on Jun 5, 2009 11:09:45 GMT -6
<If you don't think you usually get what you deserve, you are relieved of responsibility for your actions, eh?>
I've known a number of people who were truly good and deserving of more who met untimely deaths due to some unforeseen circumstance.
Not all those who "get" something deserve it!
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Post by conz on Jun 5, 2009 13:02:19 GMT -6
<If you don't think you usually get what you deserve, you are relieved of responsibility for your actions, eh?> I've known a number of people who were truly good and deserving of more who met untimely deaths due to some unforeseen circumstance. Not all those who "get" something deserve it! I agree...every Soldier knows that SOMETIMES, its just dumb luck. <g> Clair |
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Post by wolfgang911 on Jun 5, 2009 16:16:45 GMT -6
Does anyone think the Sioux (Lakota) ever lost more Warriors in any battle, against Euro-Americans, other Native tribes, or even fighting among themselves, in its entire history as a people, as they did at Little Big Horn? Clair yes, at wounded knee, allthough you can hardly called unarmed men warriors PLEASE STICK TO THE SUBJECT CONZ you got scalped again here and don't you don't even notice walking out on it by focusing on the deserved question. |
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Post by wolfgang911 on Jun 5, 2009 16:29:43 GMT -6
But as I pointed out, in this "victory," the Sioux and N. Cheyenne suffered a horrible tragedy as well, and their independence was soon ended as a result. Clair ah enfin you admit that friendly or hostile the only result could be a tragedy, the end of independance 120 years later on the standing rock reservation (check out the brulé website) : 82% unemployment whilst the 18% that are working are on government jobs and some ranching. that is total dependance of 24.000 for a heck of a time. To avoid this, SB and the ones with vision stood up with the risk to die for it. But hey what do you lose seen the result? And as you said with some bad luck (being stabbed at fort robinson) or good luck (the non invention of the hotchkiss, being granted canadian citizenship etc etc ) everything can happen. A lot of pure hasard also. once again you have us off subject congratulations  |
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Post by Montana Bab on Jun 10, 2009 12:53:00 GMT -6
[ I don't even like "Custer died for our sins." For one, I'm not sure what that means, but two, Custer died due to his own mistakes. Had he not made them, he and a lot of Soldiers would probably have lived out that day. Clair Clair, I can't believe that you wrote that! Nearly every post of yours that I have read shows that you believed otherwise! Have you had a change of heart? Bab |
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Post by markland on Jun 10, 2009 17:20:08 GMT -6
[ I don't even like "Custer died for our sins." For one, I'm not sure what that means, but two, Custer died due to his own mistakes. Had he not made them, he and a lot of Soldiers would probably have lived out that day. Clair Clair, I can't believe that you wrote that! Nearly every post of yours that I have read shows that you believed otherwise! Have you had a change of heart? Bab Babs, to give the College of Nutty Zealots their due, Clair has always been, if you discount the arrow dodging horses and the Seventh Special Forces Cavalry regiment references, pretty adamant that Custer made his own bed and was forced to sleep in it-for eternity. Be good lady, Billy |
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Post by Montana Bab on Jun 10, 2009 18:16:51 GMT -6
[quote author=markland board=Indians thread=3492 post=66188 time=1244676008 Babs, to give the College of Nutty Zealots their due, Clair has always been, if you discount the arrow dodging horses and the Seventh Special Forces Cavalry regiment references, pretty adamant that Custer made his own bed and was forced to sleep in it-for eternity. Be good lady, Billy [/quote] Billy, I guess I'd better do some re-reading on these threads or get me old eyes checked! Thanks for the correction......as much as that man loves to argue......you may have saved my buttsky! On the other hand....if what you say is true......I'm now a fan of his Beholding to ya....Bab |
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Post by conz on Jun 11, 2009 7:01:35 GMT -6
Clair, I can't believe that you wrote that! Nearly every post of yours that I have read shows that you believed otherwise! Have you had a change of heart? Bab Interesting that this is your perception of my views, MB...I have not changed a bit. It might be interesting, now that you see this, to go back and read those statements of mine in this new light of my background beliefs, and tell me what may have steered you wrong... It's probably all a matter of stereotyping...a reader sees one statement, and from that, assumes a whole philosophy behind it that they are conditioned to seeing from their experiences with "buzz words" or "code language." So it is refreshing to see that certain statements don't necessarily imply that the owner is a template of that assumed philosophy... I think most people don't understand George Custer at all...his own personal statements don't match his stereotypical image with the public, right? Thanks, Clair |
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Post by conz on Jun 11, 2009 7:06:27 GMT -6
As a military officer, you'll find that I almost always side with the Soldiers and one-feather Warriors.
I am always hardest on their leaders.
You'll find that I am very hard on the decisions that Custer, Reno, Benteen, and Keogh made...they got their men killed. I'm equally hard on Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, and the other main hostile Indian leaders for both tactical and philosophical decisions that they made.
In all cases, the Soldiers, and the Warriors and their families, did not have the power to affect those decisions, but are the ones who mainly paid for them. It is an important lesson in leadership.
btw, I also am a fan of the "quality" movement in corporate America...when dealing with worker problems, you should look first to fix the system, rather than blaming the workers.
Clair
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Post by Montana Bab on Jun 11, 2009 13:47:02 GMT -6
[... It's probably all a matter of stereotyping...a reader sees one statement, and from that, assumes a whole philosophy behind it that they are conditioned to seeing from their experiences with "buzz words" or "code language." Thanks, Clair Clair, Your answer to my post is spot-on. I think I got hung up on your early posts about your time in West Point, and the assumption that it gave you a certain insight to Custer that others didn't have. Rightly or wrongly, I admit that the "stereotype" was my mistake. Under the circumstances, your answering post was sort of like being whipped with a noodle.....and deservedly so. Can the crow that I must eat be cooked first?  Bab |
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Post by crzhrs on Jun 12, 2009 13:26:44 GMT -6
<Can the crow that I must eat be cooked first??
Who said it is a weakness to apologize?
Try slow-cooking over apple wood coals, add some herbs, spices, and you will find that crow is not that bad after all
PS: Chase afterwards with at least 2 shots of the best Ouzo you can afford!
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