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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 27, 2009 5:45:10 GMT -6
They can behave calmly but can't be trusted. I have been a lot closer. Once while dumping hay from the back of the truck the driver gave a little extra gas and I was on the ground with the hay. I could feel their breath and could have touched them but got in the truck in a hurry. Food distraction only last so long.
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Post by shan on Nov 23, 2010 7:56:25 GMT -6
This maybe the wrong place to post this, but I asked if people had any opinion on this on the other board but nobody seemed to be prepared to offer an opinion so I thought I would try here.
Many scholars of this battle take it as a given that Crazy Horse and others used Deep Ravine as a highway in order to reach the crest of the ridge from whence they fell on Keoghs back. But if we step back for a moment it's one of those things that keeps being said without any reference to the practicalities of how this was achieved.
As we all know Deep Ravine is a long, deep, narrow ravine---and we have to bear in mind that as it moves up towards the head cut it was, so we are told, much deeper than it is now--- all of which, for those of us that have seen it, presents what seems to be a highly unlikely route for substantial numbers of mounted men to negotiate. Aside from the fact that there were undoubtedly a growing number of warriors on foot along it's length who would inevitably slow their progress, we know from stories of E troop men trying to hide in the deep grass and scrub that it must fairly choked with vegetation at various points. Finally, and this is the part that has always bothered me the most, how do numbers of mounted men exit the steep head cut area without presenting the left wing who are probably arriving on Cemetery Ridge around this time with a wonderful target of slow moving men and animals. No, forget about being a target, how do they manage to get out of there at all?
I remember a bell ringing rather loudly when I first read Lakota Noon in which Michno stated that the move towards MTF was alongside MTC rather than in and along it. Why do things the hard way when, no longer concerned about concealment, you can do it the easy way? I have the same feeling about Crazy Horse move's towards the spine of the ridge. Now I haven't been down as far as the spot where Calhoun Coulee branches off Deep Ravine, but from what I can see from photographs and maps, it seems to me that this would be a good spot for mounted men to exit the ravine and then ride along it's South side up towards the ridge. What do you guys think. It would certainly make for faster movement. Okay you would be highly visible for longer, but I'm not sure Crazy Horse would have been all that concerned about that at this stage.
Shan
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Post by Dark Cloud on Nov 23, 2010 9:37:59 GMT -6
Deep Ravine or Deep Coulee? The latter leads, by Michno's map, from the village to behind Calhoun and Keogh to allow an attack from the East. I know on this board and others there has been confusion derived from those two names.
I have no clue, but I still suspect a lot of the geologic names obtained from different eras have provided a great deal of unnecessary confusion. Deep Coulee isn't all that deep, as I recall, and is more friendly to a horse.
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Post by shan on Nov 23, 2010 11:32:20 GMT -6
Well let's say for arguments sake that it was Deep Ravine, the deep cut that runs up towards LSH itself, that would be the one that most scholars and writers would be talking about.
Had it been Deep coulee then I wouldn't have such a problem imagining mounted men using it as yes, it is for the most part broad and shallow, whereas Deep Ravine is quite the opposite. I have to confess that I haven't seen it from the entrance down by the river, and allowing that it must have changed a great deal since the battle, I get the impression that it was accessible for mounted men to enter down there at the time. However, as it moves East it gets deeper and narrower, which in turn makes it harder to exit, hence the reason for my question.
I'm guessing here, but I think that given it is usually assumed to be the route that Crazy Horse used, we hit the cut-bank, end of story. In the years following the battle it has become one of the foundation stones that people use to build their battle theory, a mythic tale that must be true, and thus there is no reason to give it another thought. For myself, the more I think about it the more I'm convinced that it just wasn't possible for the two hundred plus warriors who were supposedly following him---another of those foundation stones--- to have even entertained it. If he did use this route to ride up and over the ridge and help destroy I company, then I for one think he must have ridden up alongside Deep Ravine itself, probably on it's Southern side.
Shan
Shan
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Post by Dark Cloud on Nov 23, 2010 12:11:49 GMT -6
Just saying that an early confusion in terms might have done it, but again: I have no clue.
Also, I'm not sure that "most scholars and writers" ever said Deep Ravine/Coulee was Crazy Horse's route, even among those given to think CH was the key element. Many charts of the battle show CH's forces crossing way north about where the casino and current road is and circling around the current NA memorial. In any case, the descriptions of the dust and smoke sort of reduce the importance of a need for prolonged cover in the advance from the village.
I've just finished Powers' book on the Killing of Crazy Horse and am duly impressed. A very good writer with good notations, no ridiculous agenda, and people recognizable as human. He has CH playing key roles both with Reno and Custer, which is at odds with some, but he's quite convincing.
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Post by fred on Nov 25, 2010 10:00:04 GMT -6
I've just finished Powers' book on the Killing of Crazy Horse and am duly impressed. A very good writer with good notations, no ridiculous agenda, and people recognizable as human. He has CH playing key roles both with Reno and Custer, which is at odds with some, but he's quite convincing. Having read neither, I would be interested in your opinion in how this work compares to Philbrick's. I also find it rather interesting that Powers-- who probably used Kingsley Bray's book as some sort of reference-- would disagree with Bray-- or interpret things differently-- about Crazy Horse's movements during the Reno and Custer fights. (At least from what I am told.) Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Nov 25, 2010 22:01:25 GMT -6
I put a review down in Books about LBH...... section.
Haven't read Bray.
I think Powers has Connell's mindset of presenting the stories, and he relies upon the son of General Garnett for some stories I'd not heard. All in all, it holds together, but there's the statement of the unknowable and the contested as fact without mention that is upsetting. Still a good read.
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Post by fred on Nov 26, 2010 14:25:05 GMT -6
Neither have I, but I have skimmed over the LBH section. A little presumptuous; sort of like a mutual acquaintance of ours. Thanks. I will check it out... your review, that is. As for the latter element, I am afraid most do it including myself. It is rather like a "feel" you get when one has done so much work. Sometimes it is accurate, sometimes not. But who is to say? It is a good teaching point, however, and something we should all learn from. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 28, 2010 12:51:13 GMT -6
Let's face it . . . much of what we discuss here is based on known facts and unknown facts (I'm sounding like Rumsfeld). We can make assumptions based on the known facts and assumptions on the unknown facts (we know what happened happened to Custer is a known fact . . . but how it happened is an unknown fact)
We've all read umpteen numbers of books . . . many highly intelligent with no finger-pointing or bias taken . . . then we have others that skew the "facts" to their way of thinking and rant wildly about who was at fault and why.
We know most of Custer's moves up to his separation with Reno . . . after that the "facts" get distorted . . . 134 years later the unknown facts seem to outweigh the known facts . . . which makes these boards so much fun . . . we all have opinions and most of what I post is my opinion from what I've read and what I've discussed on these boards.
Sometimes opinions can't be backed up . . . just a gut feeling from reading, discussing, and films/documentaries about the LBH.
That's me and I hope others can understand that.
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Reddirt
Full Member
Life is But a Dream...
Posts: 208
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Post by Reddirt on Dec 11, 2010 16:47:38 GMT -6
I understand you very well and your thoughts are very well written. I hope that "others" will heed your words and cease and desist from their boorish antics.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 11, 2010 17:09:03 GMT -6
A value added post?
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Post by Diane Merkel on Dec 11, 2010 17:27:57 GMT -6
No.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 13, 2011 8:45:14 GMT -6
What if Custer did see a village and he knew in his own mind it what large, but choose to ignore it, maby he dismissed it a kept it to him self in case it alarmed his men, if Custer was the type of man who thought he was right at all times, he may have thought well I know there is something out there but I know what I have to do, but I will do it my way. Regards Yan.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 28, 2013 10:50:15 GMT -6
A glaring problem with observations made along the trail, exists with the large deserted camping site near the South Fork of Ash Creek. Warriors rode out and returned along the South Fork, twice, to confront Crook at Rosebud. There were two large camps that came together at LBH but warriors who confronted Crook on the Rosebud did so using the South Fork. That is a trail of fast moving fighting men unencumbered by families, pony hers, travois and lodge poles.
This trail was not detected?
That is both incredible and unbelievable.
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