What could Custer not see?

[mcaryf]

Dear all

I have been thinking about the contradiction of various accounts telling us that Custer did not think the village was actually there whereas Wallace's report stated that a blue smoke haze was clearly visible from the divide.

Girard, Varnum, Herendeen, Reno and Benteen all relate that Custer could not see what the scouts could see and in some cases add that he did not think the village was there.

One idea I have is that whilst Custer could see the smoke he could not see enough to determine that this was "the village".

One of the main accounts we have of the campaign is from Godfrey who palpably did not realise at the time that they were following several different trails that merged and overlaid each other. Now Godfrey was not the best observer of Indian signs - he at one stage admits to thinking that clouds were smoke signals and that Indians constructed dog shelters.

A number of writers on the LBH seem to assume that Godfrey's misconception of a single village was shared by Gen Custer but what if it was not?

We know reasonably well from Wooden Leg's account that the main village groups had actually camped at S Reno Creek over a week before Custer's column reached there. If the Crow scouts had detected this and informed the General that the main trail was over a week old then there was no guarrantee that the main village would be just 20 miles away on 25th June. Could it be that Custer's concern was actually whether this was the main village, thus he was looking for indications that would tell him this rather than whether there was any sort of Indian presence at all?

So was Custer's concern that this might not be "the village" rather than no village at all?

Regards

Mike

[montea]

There's always that possibility, ahem, that GAC simply needed glasses. Not trying to be flippant here (it comes naturally) but one often reads of sharp-eyed scouts in olden times, able to spot distant buffalo herds, structures, and other people, to the amazement of others, when I suspect that many were just folks with 20/20 vision among a population of largely myopic people. While the use of lenses to improve vision dates back over a thousand years and the first pair of glasses was brought to America in 1620 (by Peter Brown, a Pilgrim), the science of optometry and regular vision checkups by common citizens is only about a century old. The first college of optometry was founded only four years before the LBH.

I now open the floor to those who have read the account of GAC's erstwhile secretary, Richard Roberts, and how GAC could shoot seven to ten bullseyes at 1000 yards. MA

"There are none so blind as those that will not see the 1200 Indians prepared to massacre you later in the day."

[erkki]

Mar 5, 2009 20:13:55 GMT -6 montea said:

There's always that possibility, ahem, that GAC simply needed glasses. Not trying to be flippant here (it comes naturally) but one often reads of sharp-eyed scouts in olden times, able to spot distant buffalo herds, structures, and other people, to the amazement of others, when I suspect that many were just folks with 20/20 vision among a population of largely myopic people.

I think it's rather a question of what one learns to see. Or perhaps the meaning of what is seen. The scouts learned to read signs--recall Charley Reynolds telling Custer to look for worms to identify the horses. I have read of a study in which two groups of Australian children were to walk across a field and report what they had seen. Aborigine children 'saw' more than four times as many things as the non-aborigine group, because they understood the meaning of what they were looking at--just as a hunter driving down the road will 'see' more animals than his non-hunting companion, or a country child will see more on a farm than a city kid.

Please don't start a brough-ha-ha about Custer being a great scout. I know he was, but he wasn't doing the same kind of scouting for the same reasons. Reynolds and Herendeen were, so to speak, specialists in the field.

[mcaryf]

It was really the contrast that interested me. Wallace has a blue smoke haze clearly visible as the column crossed the divide and yet Custer apparently cannot see.

Apparently he told De Rudio he could see something that looked like clouds where he was told to look for ponies. If he wanted to be able to see the pony herd then perhaps that was to get a feel for the size of the village and whether it was the main village.

Regards

Mike

[Dark Cloud]

You're worried about CUSTER's sight?

If we're talking sight, how is it that no officer or soldier notices the remnants of the huge village that was on Ash Creek a week previous and for a few days? They chat up every privy on the way up the Rosebud, but this was supposedly bigger.

The remnants of the larger village on the 25th resided for a long time, like the detritus on the Rosebud, yet this huge percentage of a huge village stated as fact on Ash Creek does not appear in any but an Indian account. Wouldn't they have ridden over it? Wouldn't Custer's scouts have reported it?

Wouldn't someone notice it if there? But only the mention of the dubious clump around the 'lone' tipi. This omission of something stated as a surety bothers nobody. It would stand to reason it either wasn't so big, or there that long, or all mention of the competencies of the scouts, never mind Custer, ought to be wrapped in guncotton and detonated.

It would also stand to reason that the utter lack of smoke or disturbance in the Tullochs area was a primary reason Custer did not release Herendeen.

[mcaryf]

Hi DC

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Reno's official report certainly mentioned the abandoned village site.

Peter Thompson's account is interesting and gives quite a detailed description of two different village sites the column encountered on its way down Reno Creek. The first quite early on he says was not so large but had two scalps nearby on a willow stick pushed in the ground. The second one he described as a large camping-place vacated a few days before and I would imagine this was the one near S Reno Creek also described by Wooden Leg and in Reno's report.

Thompson's account is quite interesting because it shows that even an ordinary trooper knew that the large village site remains were several days old. Contrast this with Moylan testifying at the RCOI that the trail they were following was only a day old. This was the point in my initial post that if Custer was aware that he was following trails made by different bands at different times then his concern would be whether the signs detected by the scouts were the main or a subsidiary group.

Regards

Mike

[Dark Cloud]

"As we approached a deserted village, and in which was standing one tepee....." is what Reno summons in his report.

Recall the Conventional Wisdom here. The 7th had been ascending the Rosebud and assuming the numerous village sites were the same one as it moved, with the wikiups for dogs. Or something. It sounds quite bovine no matter how it's phrased. The biggest circle is the Sun Dance. But there was no place where ALL the groups were together, since the numbers were inflated from the east after the Sun Dance.

Till this supposed spot on Ash Creek, now only denoted by the Lone Tipi. Since the size of this village would have dashed all previous assumptions, and conformed to the scouts' anxieties earlier (and nobody knew of the other half coming down the LBH to join it), you'd think that aspect would have filtered into the recollections of Reno's guys and the scouts. Yet, such a "Holy S___!" moment appears not.

If you derive that from Reno's remark, I don't know how. I also don't see indication that the scouts mention this coagulation beyond similar reference. Given it would have "proven" their concerns at the Crow's Nest to Custer, you'd think the subject might come up. If Custer saw it, and it's not possible he did not, his moves become increasingly odd.

But then, I don't see how such a huge assemblage would stick by the sad, sad dribble of what became Reno Creek by an night, much less a few days while they rushed off to nail Crook.

People mention a village site with no gasp of surprise or mention of its size, although they argue where it was. But there is no indication that anyone said 'look at the size of this, General...' as they surely would have and he should have seen. Nobody comments upon it. It's just the Sans Arc circle that's mentioned, with the one standing lodge.

Peter Thompson's tale is so absurd in the main (read AZ's demolition of the Magical Spurs on the board with eleven moderators per thread for protection against laughter), although containing some truth, and appears so late, it's silly to mention it. He tried to meld his tale into the existing ones, with questionable success.

IF this was the village that provided the 1k to 1.5k warriors that took on Crook, and since it would render all confusion about what was seen or not from the CN moot, you'd think that this aspect would appear in someone's account. Which suggests it either wasn't so big as to generate comment, or it wasn't 'all' located on Ash Creek, or the scouts were incompetent, or something.

And, those who contend the tipi was further west, within a mile of the LBH, have this going for them. It made sense for water and grassland. It was flatter land.

Going against it are those who claim the high bluff is the one opposite South Reno Creek. But it could be confused with Reno and North Reno's junction by the flats. For it to be there, the morass has to be way west, Benteen came down further west than No Name (because of the period between regaining the trail and the watering). And the timing with the packtrain is way bogus, along with the Charge of The Hybrids and the ringing in McDougal's right ear.

[mcaryf]

Hi DC

The two main accounts we are comparing here is that of Peter Thompson first published around 1913 and that of Wooden Leg first published around 1931. Thus your knee jerk reaction to say that Thompson got his material from other sources is not really appropriate in this regard.

Thompson describes the column finding a large camp site as they approached the divide on the way to the concealment halt near the Crows Nest. I am not personally familiar with others mentioning this but it certainly appears in Wooden Leg.

It seems to be a bit of a mystery to you why the Indians chose to camp near S Reno Creek and I guess you would say the same about their halt near the divide that I have described in the paragraph above. In normal circumstances I suppose they ought to have fired up the 4x4 offroad vehicles and motored on the extra 4 or 5 miles to get to the Little Big Horn - perhaps they were short of gasolene. More seriously if you look at the plot of their movements on the Map of the Sioux Wars web site you will see that they typically moved only about 10 miles per day. This is hardly surprising given their enormous numbers and the fact that they had children and old folk along. Thus the camp sites would have been dictated more by the time to stop rather than it being an ideal venue.

I am surprised you are not aware of the various urgent representations made to Custer about the size of the village and the numbers he would face. Both Bloody Knife and Mitch Bouyer are recorded as saying words to this effect in several surviving accounts after the column had reached the vicinity of the divide.

Regards

Mike

[AZ Ranger]

Mike- the point with Peter Thompson is that Camp heard Thompson's account in 1906 and began investigating it. He did not believe everything Thompson stated and challenged him on meeting Custer. He told him of the account of the 5 Sioux long before Thompson had his own account published. Thompson tells it backward in direction than the scout account. I believe the scout. Gordie has suggested that the two soldiers on foot were actually killed and that since Camp had told Thompson of the account he incorporated it later in his "true" account. The problem is he has the scouts going the wrong way and he is mounted with a empty chamber and scares them off.

Poor Watson needs saving and can't be included with the account against the 5 Sioux in Thompson's account. Watson was never given a chance to defend himself against Thompson's account.

Peter Thompson had his own account published. I doubt Wooden Leg waited until everyone that could have witnessed his account had died and then sought out Marquis to write his account.

AZ Ranger

[Dark Cloud]

As AZ points out, it's entirely appropriate.

Further, people referencing in the past a 'large' village doesn't really distinguish it from the others on the Rosebud, some called 'large.' This had to have been - if it's the one from which they ran to Crook up the handy south Reno Creek as we're told ... - much larger and worthy of much more comment, which does not exist.

That Boyeur and others had been saying it was going to be a big village, culminating at the Crow's Nest episodes, makes it stranger that this supposed metropolis didn't stand out or receive any mention as the biggest yet, even in carefully constructed stories by guys who stand at attention with their arms akimbo like six year olds. Like Thompson.

[mcaryf]

Hi Steve
I am quite happy to accept that there are all sorts of things wrong with Thompson's account about how he became a straggler and his subsequent adventures. The part of his story I am interested in is his description of events before then. He described the ride from the bivouac halt up to the Crows Nest and included the command passing two Indian camps near the Divide one small and one large. The large camp corresponds to Wooden Leg's description of where the main village camped briefly on its way to LBH via another camp at S Reno Creek.

I am not aware of any other account specfically mentioning a camp encountered on the way up Davis Creek but of course the scouts do start to agitate even more with Custer that there are far too many Indians ahead of them so it is possible the camp site was a factor.

Hi DC

I presume that as usual you are criticising a book or even two books without having read them otherwise you would know that the mega camp stopped near the divide as per Wooden Leg's account and this corresponds to Thompson describing a large camp site there. Thus S Reno Creek was not the first time the column had passed whatever indication this mass of Indians had left.

Since Davis Creek was used as a regular through route, I dare say there were various indications of previous camps, however, one might hope that the experienced scouts would be able to detect what was old and what was new. After all Curley showed WM Camp in 1908 what he said were some left over indications of the camp that had been there in 1876 so if he was right these remains might have been there for over 30 years.

Regards

Mike

[AZ Ranger]

Mike

Thompson has them leaving FAL and passing in review on May 4. The pass in review was on the 17th. So Thompson is
13 days off in his memory of events when leaving FAL. I can understand dates being off but stating the review was on the same day when first leaving FAL as compared to 13 days later when it occurred. This is a huge memory error.

He states the companies were composed of "about 70 men per company" Anyone believe that?

He states orders were received on the 15th of May when it was really the 17th.

He states Lt Calhoun was in command of "company E"

This all occurs in about a page and one half.


Thompson states a "large camp-place" Does it mean a wide place where a lot of individuals could camp or indication of a large number of campers. In his previous discussion camping places is not the size of party. It is a location. Then they got off their horses and walked around to see the the extent of the camp. In the second "large camp-place" he does not state they got off their horses to see indications of how many actually used the large camp-place. He only talks about buffalo.

He states they had "rounded up and slaughtered quite a number of buffalo". How many buffalo roundups had he witnessed?

Steve

[mcaryf]

Hi Steve

I agree with you that Thompson was an unreliable witness but that does not mean that everything he said was incorrect. There is no actual doubt that he was there. I am only using him as reinforcement to another witness, Wooden Leg, whose account Thompson could not have seen when he wrote his material.

The possibility of Wooden Leg or his translator gleaning material from Thompson does theoretically exist but seems remote to me.

So in this particular case Thompson supports Wooden Leg's account that the main village camped twice on its way across the divide once near the summit and once at S Reno Creek. Thompson's description of several camping grounds along the area near S Reno Creek is quite credible because that would match the several tribes that made up the total village. He also expressed surprise at the amount of abandoned material but to me that seems to match the Indian custom of abandoning items from those who had been killed and this is a good clue to these sites being the camp from which the warriors went to fight Crook.

Regards

Mike

[AZ Ranger]

Thompson state the first camp place was small in numbers(small party) and the second showed evidence of a buffalo roundup with no indication of numbers.

I don't think a large camp place means exclusively that a large number of individuals were camped in that large camp place area. It like stating 70 men per company. Did he mean what it should be or what he thought it was?

I do not think Thompson had the skills to determine the abandonment time of the camp. He relied on what someone told him like his ammunition mule account which was wrong.

[Dark Cloud]

My dismay at the non-necessity of reading Custer books in my dotage is based on having read many in my Pleistocene Youth. It's an informed opinion, strengthened annually.

You might want to go back and re-read your fiasco over the Far West and its captain, whom you claimed made a mistake when the very source you referenced said the opposite. You remember? You should. That you've read something isn't assurance you understand it.

Thompson is a BS artist, quite common in the West, and it drips from the page. Because you need something he claims for a theory bolsters belief in neither you nor him. He was there, is all.

NOBODY seems to have noticed at the time that here was the aggregated camp of those they'd been following. Experienced scouts would/should have called this to everyone's attention, but nobody mentions this, nor the trail of the Crook warriors heading up S. Reno Creek, nor anything that should have stopped the column for reassessment. If they called a percentage of it 'large' before, this must have been huge, but they don't note the difference, if it existed.

Just another village, apparently no larger than the previous sites which were of disparate groupings, because it remained unremarked upon. Till later, of course.