Is it even possible?

[zak]

With mounted warriors hot on their trail, it is even possible for the troopers in I,L, and C to simply turn and run to Custer and have survivors. Or does the distances in between suggest there had to be some semblance of a tactical withdraw here?

[conz]

zak,

Keogh's battalion could have galloped in column of fours to Custer, perhaps with a mounted skirmish line (maybe one company) behind them to keep the Natives back.

They could have been rushed and lost men like Reno did, but most would have made it to wherever Custer was...THE hill, down by the river, etc.

Had they charged through to Reno's position same thing...many would have made it just because the Natives couldn't kill that many that fast before they did.

Did that opinion address your question?

Clair

[pohanka]

Jun 25, 2008 4:05:38 GMT -6 zak said:

With mounted warriors hot on their trail, it is even possible for the troopers in I,L, and C to simply turn and run to Custer and have survivors. Or does the distances in between suggest there had to be some semblance of a tactical withdraw here?

The distance between Calhoun Hill to Custer Hill is, I think, irrelevant. What is crucial is the manner in which any type of withdrawal by the troopers was played out is the crucial question. In this case, I think, the remnants of the companies simply fled in panic. The Indian fighters of this era knew that to turn your back on Indian warriors and, simple run away will, ultimately, only end in your demise.

I believe that the skirmish on Calhoun Hill was effective and kept the warriors at bay for sometime. A western thrust across Custer Ridge headed by Lame White Man and, an eastern thrust across Custer Ridge headed by Crazy Horse (in military tactics a pincer movement) destroyed the line and caused the troopers to panic. The rest is history.

Due to the superior amount of warriors and their weaponry, I believe that what occurred on Calhoun Hill on that particular day and circumstances would have occurred no matter what the troopers did.

[zak]

From what I have seen, this looks a lot like displacing soldiers, not fleeing soldiers. There are groups of soldiers makers, then nothing, then another group of soldiers. Maybe a few soldiers in between. Everyone speculates these are failed skirmishes, I disagree. I believe these are bases of fire to cover displacing troops, a leap frogging if you will. Coordinated, the distances in between the bunches of men are too close approximate interval to be chance. If these troopers just turned and ran, at any point, they would be entirely crushed within one hundred yards. By contrast they made it some distance. And a gathering or any stand at Calhoun Hill is what I am saying. I've read accounts that there is sheer panic and fleeing, no firing, there had to be some resistance at some point for them to make it all the way to Custer. But little return fire and running by the moving group, being covered by the base group, is what one would expect to see. It fits the warriors description of the battle, but makes it possible for this small of a group to out run horses of a group this large for as far as they did. Just a thought.

[walkingstar]

I think that for a time, the troopers were stationed in formation and hell their ground. As the warriors infiltrated in large numbers, they suddenly opened up with heavy firing from three directions. As the deaths and injuries mounted up, the survivors fell into a panic and, ran toward Custer on Last Stand Hill. .

[AZ Ranger]

Beware of the 43 spurious markers. That clumping you see may be false markers or a soft place to bury the dead. I don't think the Indians cared about leaving bodies exactly where they died nor did the burial detail have any concern other than burying and getting out of there.

AZ Ranger

[BrokenSword]

Hi Walkingstar,

I’m not so sure that the soldiers were holding their own as opposed to both sides keeping a distance and deciding on a course of action in the LSH area. I think, for the soldiers, it was a waiting game only.

The Indians were gathering in strength and the soldiers (Custer’s immediate group) had nowhere to go. Warriors employed no specific strategy or overall command and control structure. They were operating on extinct and merely following in groups after certain warriors they themselves chose to follow and fall in behind. The Indians began stealthily working their way up ravines and through the large sage brush toward the LSH soldiers, if in fact that was the last significant group left on the battlefield at the end.

The village and the warriors' families were within sight of these soldiers. The Indians were determined to push them away from their families (as they did with Reno’s command), or to kill them were they stood; either way, eliminating the threat standing before them. Few were the targets offered, even for any experienced or reasonably competent marksmen on LSH.

The soldiers on the other hand had no place to hide. The warriors took their own careful time in getting close up on the soldiers, attrition working very much against Custer, both in his numbers and the nerves of his men. Perhaps there was a good deal of shooting coming from LSH, but it probably amounted to little more than just noise.

M

[walkingstar]

Hi Brokensword,

The men were certainly exposed weren't they! You're right, any cover fire from Last Stand Hill couldn't have amounted to much. In the end it must have been horrible, men on horseback fleeing north leaving others to do the best that they could on foot. Thank you for your interesting outlook!

[conz]

The most horrible image I have is of clouds of arrows erupting from the various gullys around LSH, where you couldn't even see the firers! LSH must have been peppered with them, and looked like one big pin cushion when they were done.

Clair

[BrokenSword]

Walkingstar and Clair -

Yep, horrible for the soldiers - this time.

There's an old joke about bringing a knife to a gun fight. The modern technology of that day failed in the circumstances Custer was caught in. Reliability, muzzle velocity, range and accuracy of the carbines had little to no part to play in the LSH portion of the fight.

The soldiers didn't have to hit much to keep the Indians from a full charge and overrunning of their position. A steady stream of bullets coming in your direction will impede your forward progress and ability to aim your return fire. Bullets can be heard whizzing and zipping by, or even seen kicking up dirt near where you happen to be. The arrows were a WHOLE different issue. Up from and out of the ground they came, so to speak, leaving no puff of smoke behind to give away the position of their launching point.

Just as with any infantrymen and their rifles suddenly under a barrage of mortar shells coming down on them from the other side of some obstacle or another, the carbines and any skirmish lines were inadequate, while the arrows kept taking their toll. With no good way to shoot back and counter what is being thrown at you, the only option is to scatter and try to run out from under the hail.

A soldier has to see some hope or chance for his own survival in combat. Custer’s soldiers weren’t cowards. They had approached the Indian encampment full of expectations of victory. Whether certain individuals’ hearts failed them or not, most thought that the day was theirs for the taking. Another day at the office was all. Their minds weren’t prepared for the possibility of the sudden and dramatic turn of fortune. Then something happened. Within minutes, they went from the predator pouncing on its prey, to a defenseless and cornered target desperate for escape and with nowhere to go and nowhere to hide. So, yep - horrible for them all.

It's no way to run a war.

BS

[conz]

Well said.

[walkingstar]

Great job!