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Post by kiktayokangi on Jun 8, 2008 11:15:10 GMT -6
here are some pictures of Sinte, Grandpa and ledger drawings. i put them up on my dotmac gallery so let me know if you have a problem viewing them. go here... gallery.mac.com/btltez1#100087 |
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Post by grahamew on Jun 8, 2008 13:05:09 GMT -6
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Post by biggordie on Jun 8, 2008 14:53:46 GMT -6
Great photos, kiktayokangi, and nice find grahamew. Thanks to you both.
Gordie
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Post by kiktayokangi on Jun 8, 2008 14:58:01 GMT -6
thank you graham
yes i have seen that geneology site. ''unknown'' is the first Sinte, his son was Sinte (Tail) but they changed the name to ''Tail'' when Crazy Horse surrendered at Camp Robinson. The soldiers listing the prisoners of CH put many bad translations on those ledgers. At least ours was the correct translation!
Richard Tail is Sinte's son. We have that photo but we did not know it was at OLC. I will have to go over there when I get back, I knew they had been updating all the archives they have.
THANK YOU!
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Post by grahamew on Jun 8, 2008 16:32:50 GMT -6
In her brief discussion of the drawings, Janet Berlo says that Sinte and other Lakota accompanied Cronau on a tour of Belin, Frankfurt, Leipzig, Vienna and other European cities in 1886. She says that according to Cronau's notes (in the AMNH), most of the illustrations were made during the trip - although she notes that they probably met in 1881. She surmises he's from Pine Ridge because of the detailed drawings of the agency and notes that a Sinte, aged 27, is in the Pine Ridge census of 1887 - but this must be Richard. Interestingly, she doesn't (or didn't) seem aware of the drawings that are in the German museum. Unfortunately, that census isn't up at the Oyate website yet: oyate1.proboards58.com/index.cgi?board=census |
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Post by kiktayokangi on Jun 8, 2008 21:25:45 GMT -6
graham...who is janet berlo?? is this info from that book? wow.
richard was named/called Sinte mostly as well, until the English translations really took effect.
There are many problems with those census reports, still to this day. The people and the land out in the districts were/are never counted properly. Also, there are past census reports where for instance, they would not even report one whole side of a road. This is all very handy when it comes to leasing land out to white ranchers etc. The Indian wars have never ended.
I would like to know if he is in that census. Hmmm. I am not sure when Sinte died, but it was after Crazy Horse died we think he stayed at Red Cloud agency then moved to Pine Ridge when they were all moved up there.
Many thanks to you for all this help/info.
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Post by kiktayokangi on Jun 8, 2008 21:32:12 GMT -6
btw..the museum in germany is in Darmstadt. i cannot remember the exact name but i have it written down somewhere. they did an exhibit on sitting bull years ago and i have a very nice book made for the exhibit that has some amazing pix in it, including one of Sinte's drawings. all the text is in German though so I cannot read any of it!
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Post by grahamew on Jun 9, 2008 0:43:18 GMT -6
The Berlo book is Plains Indian Dawings - the one that Shan was talking about on the other thread.
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Post by grahamew on Jun 9, 2008 6:11:12 GMT -6
If he was aged 27 in 1887, can this be Richard? He doesn't look much older than that in the 1899 photos. Of course, the census or Berlo could be wrong. At that time, were all the children given the surnames of their fathers and an English first name? I ask, because maybe they were other male members of the family. I would assume there are collections in Germany with Cronau's Indian drawings, not to mention photos of the men who accompanied him on his trip. In those days, tribal peoples were considered exotic and newsworthy. The Norwegian Philip Jacobsen had taken Bella Coola Indians from the Northwest Coast across Europe in 1885 and they'd given 'demonstrations' at various German coities like Hamburg and Dusseldorf. Jacobsen's enterprise (though a little bit like treating the Indians like curios - in fact they performed at a zoo in Hamburg!) helped pave the way for similar ventures. In 1887-8, the London newspapers gave over an awful lot of space to the Indians travelling with Cody, especially Red Shirt. This was also the beginning of the period where European artists began to appreciate tribal arts were not primitive but offering a different manner of representation. I've come across two photos of Lakota men taken in Germany from this period; neither, unfortunately, are named:   Here's the description from the liveauctioneers.co website: "Two CDVs of Sioux Indians From Berlin Wild West Show, with Ticket to Show, taken in 1887. The cdvs are printed, E. Thiele Charlottenburg on the front and carry a decorative imprint for Thiele's studio on the reverse. Following the tremendous success of Buffalo Bill's Wild West show to England during Queen Victoria's Jubilee celebrations in 1887, he toured across Europe, making stops in Italy and Germany. These men may have been members of his troupe." |
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Post by grahamew on Jun 9, 2008 6:14:04 GMT -6
Wouldn't this thread be better moved over to the new Indian board?
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jun 9, 2008 22:46:04 GMT -6
When Dietmar returns in a couple of weeks, we'll have to decide how to handle these boards versus the new ones. Many people find these boards through Google and other search engines and we don't want to discourage new people from posting, so we need a plan.
Kiktayokangi, Dietmar is German, and I'm quite sure he will help you with translations and/or getting additional information about that museum.
Diane
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Post by kiktayokangi on Jun 10, 2008 6:30:39 GMT -6
hi
just getting back to this board. man it's addicting!
graham thanks again for all your interest and info.
i believe they would try to translate the surname, then just randomly give a first name. I truly believe this is why, if you look at the CH surrender ledgers, if the Lakota could not translate, or the interpreter did not know or care, the soldier would write down ''piece of crap'' or whatever.
In our case Sinte means "Tail" and they gave him "Richard" as a first name.
There weren't any other males. I have the family tree. The name "Thiele" sounds very familiar I think he has something to do with this, but i have to go back to my notes. Those photos you posted are awesome. It seems like Sinte had to photographed by him as well. Dang.
Some of those Sinte Cronau ledger drawings are in NY as well, but I'm sure the bulk have to be in Germany somewhere. Obviously they were all split up.
Diane--I found this board thru google, then someone here invited me to the other board, so now I am not sure where you want me to post. Or not. It does seem perhaps all these NDN posts could go to the other board.
It would be great if Deitmar would want to translate this stuff for me.
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Post by Dietmar on Jun 23, 2008 8:11:09 GMT -6
kiktayokangi,
hello and welcome! I just have returned from Nuremburg. I looked through your posts. If I can do anything for you, just let me know. You can also send me a private mail here or at the American-Tribes board.
It´s a shame you haven´t got your family´s belongings from the museum in Darmstadt. I don´t know what you already tried to achieve, but perhaps I could contact them for you?
Best wishes
Dietmar
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Post by kiktayokangi on Jun 24, 2008 15:46:31 GMT -6
hello dietmar and thank you.
i am not sure which board to write on about this stuff!! seems like not many go on the other board yet.
i will write you with the name of the museum that i know have some of his drawings, that would be great if you could help us get them back. i will ask Grandpa how they left it with them last they tried, which i know has been several years.
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