I SURVIVED CUSTER'S LAST STAND

[Walt Cross]

Okay;
Here are two statements from men who claim to have SEEN the body:

Private Jacob Adams of H Company, 7th Cavalry stated:

“…we camped on the north side of the Yellowstone, opposite the Rosebud. After we broke camp there, I saw a dead soldier and a dead horse south of the Yellowstone only a few miles from it…The carbine was with the body and all the equipment, and the leather sling was still over the [soldier’s] shoulder.”

Private Ferdinand Widmayer of M Company, 7th Cavalry:

“I saw Nathan Short. I heard that a dead soldier was found and went to see him. The bones of the man and the dead horse and a carbine were found. The sling belt was still on the skeleton. It was near the Rosebud. The body lay out in an open space near some brush, but not in the brush… ”

Hanley doesn't say he actually saw the body:

Sergeant Richard P. Hanley, Company C, 7th Cavalry:

“The body of a trooper was found about a day’s journey from Custer’s battlefield…The gun was with the remains, which was clothed in the uniform of a cavalryman and the dead horse was lariated [sic] to a picket pin. It was thought he might have been one of Custer’s men who escaped wounded and laid down and died. Up to that time the numbers of the carbines had not been kept on record, so that the man could not be identified.”

These are primary sources that can't just be dismissed. The source is: Hammer, Kenneth M., Custer in ’76: Walter M. Camp’s Notes on the Custer Battle p. 199, 200, 201.

The Crow Scouts reported the body to Herendeen, what agenda did they have?

Walt

[crzhrs]

It seems strange than no Sioux or Cheyenne came across the body. If they did they would have taken any useful equipment, especially weapons.

Did anyone mention how soon after the LBH the body was discovered? If it was soon after the battle the body would not have been in a skeletal condition.


As for Hanley, second-hand info cannot always be relied on. It is necessary to have been the actual person to witness the body to make the statement.

Also how would someone know it was Short if the body was just bones?

[Scout7]

Walt,

Walter Camp researched this story more than any other researcher, and of all the people he talked with, only three claimed to have seen the body. These were Widmayer, Adams and Galvin. Hanley never claimed to have viewed the body, he was only repeating the story, as many others did.

Widmayer; ''....body had been dead a long time and clothing rotted.'' Widmayer & co. marched up the Rosebud on July 30. A little over one month after the battle....how could the clothes have rotted in little over a month? Where was Widmayer's commanding officer? How come no officer with Widmayer mention this account? Widmayer says ''saw Nathan Short'' but then says, ''..talk at the time was that it was supposed to have been one of Custer's men who got away.'' Widmayer's blooper. One moment it is Nathan Short and the next it isn't. And once again the body is clothed....why didn't they check it for a laundry tag? You can't check what ain't there! Widmayer is repeating the tall tale and trips himself up in the telling. Privates were not allowed to run amuck all over the Montana landscape without an officer.

Adam's account: ''The carbine was with the body and all equipment, and the leather sling was still over the body.'' We can assume from Adam's account that the body is still clothed and, once again, NO ONE inspected for name tags. Where was Adam's commanding officer? No officer mentions this account. But Adams gets carried away in his account.....and says the man was from CO. L and was scalped! The Indians killed and scalped him, yet left his gun, clothes and ALL EQUIPMENT! Adams, like Widmayer, trips himself up in his tall tale.

Anthony Gavin's account: We can totally dismiss this account.....Gavin, not to be outdone, makes the body a lieutenant with arrows sticking in him and a dozen lying around. No other accounts mention any of this nonsense.

''Crow scouts reported the body to Herendeen.'' Which scouts? we need their first hand accounts and details to give this story any kind of validity. Without them it is no more than heresay and tall tales. Interestingly, Camp dismissed all of these accounts as fraudulent. Walt, I would have to question these as 'primary sources.'

How many participants that survived the battle of the LBH lied about what they did and saw? the answer is lots. Curley, Peter Thompson, Goldin, Thomas Stowers, James Watson, Gall have all told some of the biggest whoppers regarding the battle. Why do you put such stock in what the three afore mentioned privates claimed to have seen? Claims that smack of being nothing more than complete fables.
Thanks Walt!

Scout

[shatonska]

again from Camp page 248, richard e. thompson personally saw Short's horse and carabine but not the body

[Trooper7]

And no one buried these remains, yet, any and all other remains that were found, at ant site, received a burial. If this were a true story don’t you think these privates, out traipsing around the Rosebud, would have reported this find right then and there to their sergeants or officers? Knipe really started the ball rolling with his story to Camp. But he never actually claimed to have seen it. Godfrey did see the dead horse that was found, with no rider and no guns, and that horse still had a full feedbag. The poor horse most likely came from Reno’s earlier scout. There is not one credible witness that saw a body there.

[Walt Cross]

Hey;
You guys are arguing with the primary source fellas not me, don't shoot the messenger just because you disagree. I stated Hanley didn't see the body, read it again. As for quick deterioration, the soil is very alkaline, and I mean very alkaline in that area. As for the Sioux, you may recall that Terry and company marched north to the Yellowstone and East along the Yellowstone the Sioux avoided the area and if they did march through they weren't stopping for body viewing. And I understand the body was buried. And, unless you have something that refutes a primary source, its not refuted. Lack of comment by officers or sergeants is not evidence.

Walt

[Walt Cross]

Scout, you claim people lied, you can't prove it. As for Gavin, his account was verified by a column of 5th Cavalry, you just haven't read it yet. You will in my book.

Walt

[jdmackintosh]

Just back from out of town and you'll have been having a fascinating discussion on this subject, with great points raised by all. I was reading through this and started to think along the lines that Scout has set forth. If there was a body, there would have been a funeral. Thinking back to how the men were buried at the LBH-each one with a wooden stake.
wouldn't our mystery trooper warranted the same.

An incident that compares better to the supposed dead trooper on the Rosebud--the death of the wounded private William George of Company H on board the Far West as it headed back to Ft. Lincoln. On July 3, at the Powder River, Grant Marsh stopped the Far West long enough to remove his body for burial. Today, his grave, rightly or wrongly located, is marked with a government issue headstone and stands alone on the prairie near the river. Why not the same treatment for Rosebud trooper, especially when that could have been down so much easier?

I think back to the twin graves of Privates Turner and Cunningham that we stopped and visited near Inyan Kara on the way to the Black Hills in June. Private Ewert wrote a very moving account of the burials there in 1874. Surely, this lone trooper would have received a similar funeral, tingered with sadness and its details and emotions recorded by officers and enlisted men.

[Diane Merkel]

Jim Byrnes sent me some photos he took recently of William George's grave by the Yellowstone. See www.lbha.org/Cavalry/WilliamGeorge.htm.

[Scout7]

Well, actually Walt, I don't have to prove these guys are lying...they have to prove they're telling the truth, which to me, they haven't. I have to agree with the big boys, Godfrey & Camp, these stories are nonsense. Just like in a court of law, these three privates would be grilled on the witness stand, so to speak. Weak and contradictory testimony at best. We see by the accompanying photos that great care was taken with Private William George's grave, yet the ones in our privates stories were left to rot or were 'supposed' to have been buried and one was a Lieutenant? I don't think so.

Anyway, the Rosebud Horse story is one of our more fascinating tales surrounding the battle and will be with us for sometime to come. Thanks John and ...Diane...thanks for the photos.

Scout

[Walt Cross]

Scout;
I have to disagree. We're doing the research, those men are gone now. If you disagree with them then show just cause, not just opinion. Godfrey too is not infallable.

Walt

[Scout7]

Thanks Walt....and when is the Harrington book going to be released? Dying to read it.... Please post the date when you know.

Scout

[Walt Cross]

You're such a diplomat! ;D I expect it to be out before Christmas, I grow a bit impatient with publishers!

Walt

[jdmackintosh]

Just before Christmas? Greast timing! I look forward to reading it as well and seeing the discussions on here. I like these threads that are more or less llike a book club discussion.

[Scout7]

In regard to any of the 'man that got away' stories, the Indians say several made the attempt. Sgt. Butler is the best known of course, but Pvt. John Foley's body was found outside of the battle perimeter leading to speculation that he died in the attempt to escape and apparently came the closest. Indian accounts say one man was still alive after the battle and put up a fight on a nearby ridge before Indians killed him, and of course the man who escaped and according to Indian accounts shot himself while riding his horse. I personally don't think anyone got very far from the battlefield proper according to Indian accounts.

Which raises a new theory...could the dead Rosebud horse have fled from the Rosebud battlefield after it was shot? Head wounds are not always fatal immediately. Could the horse have fled from Last Stand hill after some trooper shot it for coverage? Don't know just throwing some stuff out there....kinda like Walt and his guidon theory, which is an interesting thought.

Scout