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Post by conz on Dec 3, 2007 14:15:51 GMT -6
Again, more than one answer may be correct, or your belief, so either pick the most important one or vote more than once!
Clair
PS...sorry, I put an "I" instead of an "L" on the poll...please read as Co L unless somebody can figure out how to modify the poll question...
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Post by elisabeth on Dec 8, 2007 12:36:34 GMT -6
Co. L:
This is out of left field, so may be totally daft and not worth considering.
Most people today accept that Keogh's battalion was C, I, L -- thus explaining L's position. However, strictly speaking, his battalion was B, C, & I. Edgerly writes of Keogh being given command "strictly in accordance with his rank", which could mean either. Could be C & I, plus L given to him because of his higher rank; or could be C & I, and tough luck that his third company, B, is assigned to the pack-train.
Assuming the latter: we then have those curious reports at the RCOI (Culbertson, Moylan) that Calhoun had been wounded.
Assuming again that those are true: is it conceivable that Co. L was anchored on Calhoun Hill purely because Calhoun could be moved no further? That it was the nearest high ground? --------- In which case, Custer would leave his more expendable wing (no Grade A Custer Clan members) there to take care of business, while he ventured off north to look for a ford. The expansion along Battle Ridge is then a reaction to Indian pressure, rather than a deep-seated plan.
Just thinking that there might have been an entirely pragmatic reason for the deployments on Battle Ridge. Nothing to do with controlling the approaches, waiting for Benteen, or anything else more complex than simply parking the brother-in-law in a "safe" place. Custer wouldn't want to go home and face Maggie if he'd got Calhoun killed. The downside of nepotism, really: could he have been forced to change his whole battle plan on the basis of one wounded relative?
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Post by wild on Dec 8, 2007 17:40:22 GMT -6
while he ventured off north to look for a ford If Custer took off with 2 troops to look for a ford Keogh would have set up a defensive line of which there is no evidence. The Indians were no more than 1 mile from Keogh's position yet Custer sets out to find a ford beyond the Indian village which could have been 2 miles away. There is no logic to this ford D theory.
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Post by erkki on Dec 8, 2007 19:51:15 GMT -6
while he ventured off north to look for a fordIf Custer took off with 2 troops to look for a ford Keogh would have set up a defensive line of which there is no evidence. The Indians were no more than 1 mile from Keogh's position yet Custer sets out to find a ford beyond the Indian village which could have been 2 miles away. There is no logic to this ford D theory. Depends on when and where you think Indians were a) no more than a mile from Keogh's position, b) the direction from which Indians presented a threat to Keogh's position and, by extension, to HQ + 2 companies, c) where you think Keogh was positioned when GAC took off to look for a ford.
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Post by harpskiddie on Dec 8, 2007 20:54:09 GMT -6
From this point in time, and thinking we know what we think we know, there is no logic to virtually anything to do with these fights. There are several operative words in there, I think.
Gordie MC
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Post by wild on Dec 9, 2007 1:02:46 GMT -6
Where ever Keogh is he is never more than 1 mile from the village and thus potential attack with only a 3 minute warning. Custer in order to find a ford will open a gap of at least 20 minutes between the two forces.Do you see the lunacy in this ford theory?Even the smallest force of Indians can prevent him rejoining Keogh.And considering he orders one force [Benteen]to close with him at the same time splitting his existing force make no sense.
From this point in time, and thinking we know what we think we know, there is no logic to virtually anything to do with these fights. Its the twlight zone or for our younger readers the x factor?
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Post by conz on Dec 12, 2007 14:21:59 GMT -6
Here are some Native accounts that may concern this subject:
"When I got across the river I saw three companies of Custer's battalion making a stand and noticed one company on the other side of them on a knoll. I cannot understand why the three companies did not try and help those that jumped off the bank, or why all of them didn't cross over and fight in the village. I think Custer saw he was caught in a bad place and would like to have gotten out of it if he could, but he was hemmed in all around and could do nothing but only to die then…These three companies turned all their horses loose; that is, the horses the were not shot down already. Only one officer stayed on his horse. It did not take long to kill them here. I saw Yellow Nose with a flag coming out from among the dead soldiers. Eight soldiers started towards the company on the knoll. The officer on horseback was behind them. A Cheyenne charged this officer, and this officer shot him in the head. A Sioux with scalp lock charged at him also, and he shot this Sioux in the breast. Another Indian then rode up and shot this officer off his horse. I captured his horse. It was a sorrel horse. This officer killed these two Indians. I have been told since then that Custer was with that one company on the knoll." – Brave Bear
"Indians fired upon these troops from the rear (north) side, frightening the led horses which broke away from the holders. Some of these horses rushed upon the ridge where many were shot by Indians firing from the south side, believing the soldiers were charging. This action took place on Calhoun Ridge because it was here that officers of the Montana Column observed the bodies of men and horses thickly strewn about." – Brave Bear
"This same man who had fired at him was next seen by YN at a small mound on the ridge and on foot, with about thirty men gathered around him. He was bareheaded and armed only with a pistol. As the Indians bore down upon this group, a number of the soldiers apparently lost courage and ran to lower ground, close to the base of the mound. The officer shouted loudly to the men and drew nearer to them when he found that they did not hear him or were unwilling to obey him. The appearance of this man was so striking and gallant that YN decided that to kill him would be a feat of more than ordinary prowess...The battle had gone against the soldiers so heavily at this point that the officer stood finally alone. With saber drawn, YN rode headlong at his enemy, prepared to cut him down at a stroke...YN gathered himself for a third onslaught. As he drew near, the pistol was not fired - it was empty. He came squarely upon the officer, who bent his knees as if to ward off the blow of the uplifted saber. YN struck him with terrible violence on the back of the head and the man sunk to the ground in a heap." – Yellow Nose
"As the warriors charged the knoll, the troopers opened such a heavy fire that the Indians had to fall back. Only Yellow Nose charged up close to the soldiers. Then he, too, raced back to safety. The son of Chief Ice was not so lucky. White Cow Bull saw his horse running away riderless and covered with blood. The Cheyennes massed for another charge. As Chief Comes-in-Sight and a warrior named Contrary Belly rushed in close, fear-crazed troop horses plunged and bolted and reared, causing their handlers so much trouble that the soldiers held their fire a moment or so. Just then, Yellow Nose, charging again, snatched a company guidon from its place in the soldiers' line. As he carried it away, he counted coup on a nearby trooper - striking him with the captured guidon...At this, some of the frenzied mounts of the gray-horse troop broke away from their handlers and stampeded. 'The soldiers are running!' a Cheyenne yelled. But it was not yet so. Though hard pressed from all sides, the troopers were standing their ground." – Yellow Nose
"Young Eagle, at 17yrs old, fought on the side of Calhoun Hill. Custer's men went behind the ridge and Indians got off their horses and fought the soldiers. Gall, who was Young Eagle's half brother, was the leader of the fight…After Custer went over the ridge, we saw one man to every three horses. Indians surrounded whites on horses. Very few Indians had guns; most had arrows and tomahawks. The whites were good fighters."" – Young Eagle
"Custer's men dismounted. Their horses got away and ran for the river. Custer’s men were all scattered out. The soldiers lined up on a ridge; then they sang. The Indians scared the horses and 100 horses were killed before the soldiers retreated on foot." note: This awful destruction of animals took place on Calhoun Ridge which was littered with horse bones until 1904.” – Little Soldier
"Butler, who was trying to get through to Custer, shot many Indians. Every time he shot he brought down a warrior, said the Indians. The Indians respected him because he was so brave." Note: 1SG James Butler (1842-1876), member of L Company, was killed near Deep Coulee. He was described as a balding, heavyset man with side-whiskers...a number of cartridges were found next to his body. – Holy Face Bear
Horned Horse says the smoke and dust was so great that foe could not be distinguished from friend. The horses were wild with fright and uncontrollable. The Indians were knocking each other from their steeds, and it is an absolute fact that the young bucks in their excitement and fury killed each other, several dead Indians being found killed by arrows.
Clair
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Post by mwkeogh on Dec 14, 2007 1:04:35 GMT -6
Here's my take on the Indian accounts around Calhoun Hill. My own clarifications underlined in parenthesis:
Note: It is my opinion that Brave Bear's description below describes the action at Keogh's position along Battle Ridge rather than the action on Calhoun Hill.
"When I got across the river I saw three companies (I, C & L ) of Custer's (actually Keogh's) battalion making a stand and noticed one company on the other side of them on a knoll (this would be the Yates Battalion on LSH). I cannot understand why the three companies did not try and help those that jumped off the bank, or why all of them didn't cross over and fight in the village. I think Custer saw he was caught in a bad place and would like to have gotten out of it if he could, but he was hemmed in all around and could do nothing but only to die then…These three companies turned all their horses loose (this refers to the Indian attack on the horseholders behind Calhoun Hill and their subsequent attack on Keogh's horseholders in the swale); that is, the horses that were not shot down already. Only one officer (this would be Capt. Keogh) stayed on his horse. It did not take long to kill them here (the troopers down in the swale behind Battle Ridge). I saw Yellow Nose with a flag coming out from among the dead soldiers (at the Keogh position on Battle Ridge). Eight soldiers started towards the company on the knoll (ie: LSH). The officer on horseback was behind them (Keogh remained at the rear of his Troop to cover its retreat towards LSH). A Cheyenne charged this officer, and this officer (Keogh) shot him in the head . A Sioux with scalp lock charged at him also, and he shot this Sioux in the breast. Another Indian then rode up and shot this officer off his horse (describing the death of Keogh). I captured his horse. It was a sorrel horse (Comanche is a buckskin claybank with sorrel hues). This officer killed these two Indians. I have been told since then that Custer was with that one company on the knoll (ie: at LSH)." – Brave Bear
Note: the below description given by Brave Bear appears to be a description of the action of C Co. on Finley Ridge.
"Indians fired upon these troops (C Co.) from the rear (north) side (ie: from the head of Deep Ravine), frightening the led horses which broke away from the holders. Some of these horses rushed upon the ridge (ie: Finley Ridge) where many (horses) were shot by Indians firing from the south side (of Finley Ridge, from the area of Deep Coulee), believing the soldiers were charging. This action took place on Calhoun Ridge (ie: Finley Ridge) because it was here that officers of the Montana Column observed the bodies of men and horses thickly strewn about." – Brave Bear
"This same man (Lt. Calhoun) who had fired at him was next seen by Yellow Nose at a small mound on the ridge (most likely Calhoun Hill) and on foot, with about thirty men gathered around him (the troopers of L Co). He was bareheaded and armed only with a pistol. As the Indians bore down upon this group, a number of the soldiers apparently lost courage and ran to lower ground, close to the base of the mound (ie. the troopers of L Co abandoned their hilltop position and tried to break out to the Keogh sector). The officer (ie. Lt. Calhoun) shouted loudly to the men and drew nearer to them when he found that they did not hear him or were unwilling to obey him. The appearance of this man was so striking and gallant that Yellow Nose decided that to kill him would be a feat of more than ordinary prowess...The battle had gone against the soldiers so heavily at this point that the officer stood finally alone. With saber drawn, Yellow Nose rode headlong at his enemy, prepared to cut him down at a stroke...Yellow Nose gathered himself for a third onslaught. As he drew near, the pistol was not fired - it was empty. He came squarely upon the officer, who bent his knees as if to ward off the blow of the uplifted saber. Yellow Nose struck him with terrible violence on the back of the head and the man sunk to the ground in a heap." (describing the death of Lt. Calhoun) – Yellow Nose
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Post by conz on Dec 14, 2007 7:57:49 GMT -6
"When I got across the river I saw three companies ( I, C & L ) of Custer's ( actually Keogh's) battalion making a stand and noticed one company on the other side of them on a knoll ( this would be the Yates Battalion on LSH). I cannot understand why the three companies did not try and help those that jumped off the bank, or why all of them didn't cross over and fight in the village. That's possible...he could also be referring to earlier in the action, when Yates' squadron was down at the bank, and Keogh's squadron stayed up "on the knoll." I'm not convinced either way yet. Otherwise my interpretations of these Native accounts coincide exactly with yours, and I don't have much doubt as to their accuracy. Clair
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 14, 2007 8:44:00 GMT -6
Appears that the sabre was an effective weapon according to Yellow Nose. A sabre could have been used from the ground to block the blows also.
AZ Ranger
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Post by conz on Dec 14, 2007 9:39:25 GMT -6
Appears that the sabre was an effective weapon according to Yellow Nose. A sabre could have been used from the ground to block the blows also. AZ Ranger I agree that the 7th CAV Soldiers should have had their sabers with them that day, and on their hips, not strapped to their saddles. Whether it would have changed any outcome is doubtful, but I think more Natives would have been casualties in the various close combats. Clair
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Post by mwkeogh on Dec 15, 2007 21:23:25 GMT -6
"When I got across the river I saw three companies ( I, C & L ) of Custer's ( actually Keogh's) battalion making a stand and noticed one company on the other side of them on a knoll ( this would be the Yates Battalion on LSH). I cannot understand why the three companies did not try and help those that jumped off the bank, or why all of them didn't cross over and fight in the village. That's possible...he could also be referring to earlier in the action, when Yates' squadron was down at the bank, and Keogh's squadron stayed up "on the knoll." I'm not convinced either way yet. Otherwise my interpretations of these Native accounts coincide exactly with yours, and I don't have much doubt as to their accuracy. Clair Keep in mind Clair that Brave Bear's question of why the 3 companies making a stand (ie: Keogh's battalion) "did not try and help those that jumped off the bank, or why all of them didn't cross over and fight in the village" could well have been referring to why Keogh's battalion did not follow Yate's Battalion down to the north ford and all cross over and fight in the village.
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Post by elisabeth on Dec 16, 2007 7:21:40 GMT -6
The only jumping off banks we tend to hear about in Custer's battle is chaps leaping into Deep Ravine; at least I don't remember any account of substantial numbers jumping into the river. If Brave Bear's referring to the Deep Ravine episode, then this could be interesting for the sequence of events -- suggesting the Deep Ravine episode could have happened while Keogh's battalion was still making a stand. That puts the cat among the pigeons ... On the other hand, though: could he be referring to Reno's men? Wondering why they didn't fight their way back south to reunite with Reno?
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Post by shatonska on Dec 16, 2007 8:08:50 GMT -6
"I cannot understand why the three companies did not try and help those that jumped off the bank, or why all of them didn't cross over and fight in the village"
clearly he asks himself why these companies haven't supported RENO(that jumped off the bank) , and why the whole regiment has not charged the village ,instead of only reno's companies
could Keogh be the brave officier ? comanche taken but later released because of the wounds
Yellow Nose's accounts are about the lsh episode , i think
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Post by mwkeogh on Dec 16, 2007 16:18:51 GMT -6
The only jumping off banks we tend to hear about in Custer's battle is chaps leaping into Deep Ravine; at least I don't remember any account of substantial numbers jumping into the river. If Brave Bear's referring to the Deep Ravine episode, then this could be interesting for the sequence of events -- suggesting the Deep Ravine episode could have happened while Keogh's battalion was still making a stand. That puts the cat among the pigeons ... On the other hand, though: could he be referring to Reno's men? Wondering why they didn't fight their way back south to reunite with Reno? Good analysis here elisabeth. And one that would give some consideration to the idea that Keogh's battalion may not have been the first to fall. or perhaps some of his battalion was yet alive. However, I think there are too many Indian accounts which clearly describe the action in Deep Ravine as being the last on the field that day, occurring even after the final defenders of LSH had been overrun. I don't see any native accounts referring to Calhoun Hill or Finley Ridge being the location where the last of the fighting took place.....therefore, I think your 2nd theory is closer to the truth. Brave Bear most likely was referring to Reno's battalion as the men "jumping off the banks" into the river during their retreat back to the bluffs.
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