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Post by desertpossum on Aug 5, 2009 16:05:21 GMT -6
"Indians? What Indians? There are no Indians left but moi!"
D. Possum
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Post by markland on Aug 5, 2009 17:07:03 GMT -6
Clair, I was just remembering this post and that portion specifically and realized I did not phrase it right! I had seen on the other board that you had mentioned TDY at Ft. Riley and figured I could ride up to KCI and meet you for a drink before your drive off to the land of the coyote. I haven't read your response, and likely won't until later as I'm off to watch an exercise in futility as big figuring out the Custer Cluster, i.e., a Royals game but if you chewed me a new one over that phrase, it was deserved.
Billy
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Post by conz on Aug 5, 2009 18:47:33 GMT -6
Clair, I was just remembering this post and that portion specifically and realized I did not phrase it right! I had seen on the other board that you had mentioned TDY at Ft. Riley and figured I could ride up to KCI and meet you for a drink before your drive off to the land of the coyote. I haven't read your response, and likely won't until later as I'm off to watch an exercise in futility as big figuring out the Custer Cluster, i.e., a Royals game but if you chewed me a new one over that phrase, it was deserved. Billy LOL...actually, that was your phrase I liked the most...I'm a BIG Green Day fan! Anyway, no prob. Just remember that I don't think I'm better or more knowledgeable, overall, than you or anyone else. I only offer my opinions and say why, and offer my comments on other's ideas. I figure that is why people post them here...so the rest of us can comment on them. I just wish people would stick to commenting on the ideas, and not on the posters themselves. That would be as cool as Green Day... The Army switched my Riley trip to Benning, which I'm off to next week. Gotta stay flexible in the Cav... Clair |
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 5, 2009 20:02:56 GMT -6
Wolf, you can add "proof" to your To Do vocabulary list. You've not disproved any of my contentions; finding a sort of contrary opinion lacks turgor for the task. You've not only failed to adequately address them, you've become the Illustrative Example of the Babylonian Fallacy: the baseless belief that physical defeat is proof of spiritual superiority.
It's idiotic to deny that warrior societies are, by nature and without exception, sadistic. Native Americans took pride in it in the way they tortured each other. They took pride in the Sun Dance, than which not ever the Inquisition surpassed in pain, and humiliation and shunning to those who failed it. Of course, those that survived were greatly diminished as warriors with ripped pectoral and back muscles, rather self defeating.
Cutting off the hands of enemy infants, as the Cheyenne did to the Shoshone, witnessed and attested, is pretty much on the money. Along with centuries of testimony by Europeans from at least five nations from South to North America.
It's one of the reasons few Marines share Christmas cards with their DI's, and it trickles down to sports teams where everyone dumps on the rookies, betraying a heritage far grimmer from the warrior past.
If, as you hope, Nature does what the Indians could not and lays civilization low, it won't be the Indians of today who'll be able to take advantage of it. Three times the obesity rate of any other ethnic group, which is one of the reasons that their idea of Returning to the Ways of The People consists of riding rubber boats powered by outboards with harpoon guns for their alloted whale, or using jeeps to herd Uncle Pte in similar re-enactments or 'hunts.'
They lost. It's best to admit it - there's no shame, virtually everybody's did - and move forward.
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Post by bc on Aug 5, 2009 22:04:20 GMT -6
Clair, I was just remembering this post and that portion specifically and realized I did not phrase it right! I had seen on the other board that you had mentioned TDY at Ft. Riley and figured I could ride up to KCI and meet you for a drink before your drive off to the land of the coyote. I haven't read your response, and likely won't until later as I'm off to watch an exercise in futility as big figuring out the Custer Cluster, i.e., a Royals game but if you chewed me a new one over that phrase, it was deserved. Billy Billy, did you take your cat to the Royals game tonight? Best thing that happened at the game!! By the way, I read where they are looking for some type of report writer/compiler at Fort Leavenworth. Might be right up your alley. bc |
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Post by ignimbrite on Aug 5, 2009 22:28:44 GMT -6
AZ wrote
It was kind of tongue in cheek but the buffalo were shot in large numbers from trains. How hard is it to move from a train. I have only seen around 100 buffalo killed but have never seen coyotes stand around as more shots are fired. I think finding buffalo was easy and killing them even easier. There was no place for the large numbers to hide.
I overheard a hunter who had a buffalo tag for the area just outside Yellowstone say that killing a buffalo was just about as exciting as shooting a sofa. He swore he'd never do it again and then waxed eloquent about bull elk hunting.
Ruth
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 6, 2009 7:31:09 GMT -6
AZ wrote It was kind of tongue in cheek but the buffalo were shot in large numbers from trains. How hard is it to move from a train. I have only seen around 100 buffalo killed but have never seen coyotes stand around as more shots are fired. I think finding buffalo was easy and killing them even easier. There was no place for the large numbers to hide. I overheard a hunter who had a buffalo tag for the area just outside Yellowstone say that killing a buffalo was just about as exciting as shooting a sofa. He swore he'd never do it again and then waxed eloquent about bull elk hunting. Ruth I agree Ruth. On our northern buffalo hunt it is harder to find them but again the shooting is easy. |
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 6, 2009 8:20:17 GMT -6
<It's idiotic to deny that warrior societies are, by nature and without exception, sadistic. Native Americans took pride in it in the way they tortured each other>
Was it for the sake of just inflicting pain or was there some underlying reason?
Did it show how strong or brave an enemy was?
Did it give an enemy an opportunity to go out in dignity by not giving in to the "torture"?
Was the Sun Dance just some macho act or was it a way to offer oneself to what you believe in?
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 6, 2009 9:02:49 GMT -6
There is nothing mutually exclusive, crzhrs. But to try and dress it up as less than a sadistic set of acts, almost entirely counterproductive to the strength of the tribe - or clan, or unit - is pretty stupid.
The point to emphasize is that the Sun Dance crippled, to one degree or another, the participant. No doubt they believed in the underlying value of showing bravery, but..........wtf? You needed all the healthy guys possible for defense. If everyone did it, it would medically reduce the fighting ability of the tribe, with people unable - because of permanently torn major muscles - to fight well, perhaps at all. This must have occured to them. So what was the continued attraction for the majority of watchers, the ones that teased their friends while they hung in agonizing pain?
They did share the dubious warrior ethic of torture as a gift to the victim with the Vikings and other warrior societies. This required belief in a reward of some sort in the next life. It's common in warrior societies, not exclusive to Indians.
In the last decades of NATO practice, it seems the nations with the least chicken-sh__ and sadistic training methods (hint: not the US) performed as well or better than others. That's not combat, of course, but there is room to wonder if certain types of folks just like to torture people in their control and have developed all sorts of excuses for it, after time unfortunately accepted as a constructive element when it may not be so.
Again: I would not know, never having served, but there's a lot of accounts and writing about this by people - often well known and regarded combat vet officers - who surely would know.
CH apparently thought it pretty dumb, and wouldn't participate, among other warriors. If Rain in the Face had endured the dance that ripped out the indentations where his back muscles used to be, his supposedly easy capture by Tom Custer isn't such a surprise, the increasing number of injuries later in life as his body couldn't compensate.
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Post by wolfgang911 on Aug 7, 2009 7:22:27 GMT -6
you've become the Illustrative Example of the Babylonian Fallacy: the baseless belief that physical defeat is proof of spiritual superiority. YES just like jesus, gandhi, bouddha and in a way sitting bull and crazy horse as they first kept on fleeing, kept out of the way of whites, battled only when no other option and rendered themselves in the sake of their tribe facing death and imprisonment themselves. I don't know why you mingle the sun dance in (that is why it is impossible to debate with you like with conz, you jump from one unrelated argument to another) but perhaps this is the reason (and brings us back to the thread) : Without the sun dance vision Sitting Bull would not have fueled his nation with a very strong motivation that many soldiers would fell into camp...  Without that 1 sundance, we might have faced another Lakota spirit, easier to frighten. Who knows. All 7 fires were waiting for this vision to fullfill itself. Rosebud was not enough. As for my way of countering your arguments I'll explain it once more : as long as you keep on coming with extreme exemples that are easily balanced by me with worse exemples of the adverse party > your argument becomes obsolete. If you state that NDN culture had to go because of sadism (?) or slavery, and I find you tons of exemples of worse sadism or women treatment at the same period by other civilisations, that survived > your point goes down the drain. As we could add that torture happened everywhere and that your nation has been perpetrating it well into the 2000 (while european countries have not done it since WW2). if I follow your reasoning the US is doomed ;D Further on this very page you state several times against me conz and crhrs that "very stupid," it is very idiotic "" etc talking to those who are so willing to debate with you I have done this to I believe and here is my excuse and question : Can we cool down a bit and discuss without adding those words and let the public judge if ever they are reading this stuff..  |
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Post by wolfgang911 on Aug 7, 2009 7:29:02 GMT -6
If, as you hope, Nature does what the Indians could not and lays civilization low, it won't be the Indians of today who'll be able to take advantage of it. Three times the obesity rate of any other ethnic group, which is one of the reasons that their idea of Returning to the Ways of The People consists of riding rubber boats powered by outboards with harpoon guns for their alloted whale, or using jeeps to herd Uncle Pte in similar re-enactments or 'hunts.' Ok I admit this is a good one ;D |
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Post by wolfgang911 on Aug 7, 2009 7:37:30 GMT -6
Was the Sun Dance just some macho act or was it a way to offer oneself to what you believe in? it was just a prayer once a lifetime of any dignified warrior not to end up in a traffic jam sacrifing yourself going to your boss each and every day and to avoid obesity and ask for more buffalo for a free life of hunt and adventure no to stand up every morning and to bed every night how to reimburse their mortgage ;D |
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 7, 2009 9:20:07 GMT -6
OK Wolfie what does this have do with whether there was few or numerous fatalities at LBH?
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 7, 2009 10:14:47 GMT -6
Right. Who can deny that when just thinking about Jesus and Buddha and Ghandi the first thing memory elbows to the front of the mind are the lives of Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse. And how proud they'd be to be included in that company as well.
There's a world outside The Big Book of Indians For Children and/or European Skulls of Calcium, Wolf. But then, your opinions suggest you find even that heavy slogging. There are few 'heroes' in history, and the actual ones never intended to be.
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 7, 2009 11:05:19 GMT -6
AZ:
<OK Wolfie what does this have do with whether there was few or numerous fatalities at LBH?>
It's just not Wolfie who is venturing off-topic . . . so let's not pick and choose who's doing so.
We are all guilty of it.
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