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Post by wild on Dec 8, 2007 7:16:00 GMT -6
Reno was involved in 5 maneuvers against an enemy which over ran a force nearly 100 men stronger and which Benteen would not go near.And he goes on and plays his part in the defence of Reno Hill. The situation in the timber could only deterorate.He had done everything required by his orders and bought at least an hour for Custer. There are times on the battlefield when a commander says to his troops we have done everything possible save your own lives now.That moment came for Reno in the timber.
I am somewhat ambivalent about Reno's move from the timber. I would quite like to criticise him and say it was not well done but I am reluctant to do so because I am not sure that any better outcome would automatically result. This observation from Mike is as honest and fair to the man as you will get but I will go further and support his action. Because organisation will reduce the chances of survival for some of the men.For example the rearward troop,the rearward troopers in the rearward troop will not survive.When all is lost a soldier has the right to look to his own resources for survival.Remove that right from him in favour of a fancy parade ground display and you will have a very cautious reluctant soldier.
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Post by conz on Dec 10, 2007 8:43:12 GMT -6
There are times on the battlefield when a commander says to his troops we have done everything possible save your own lives now.That moment came for Reno in the timber. That's right...the crux is WHEN that time is. You'll find officers on both sides of this issue with regards to whether Reno got that time right, or not. Take your pick! And who gets to decide when that time has come for the Soldier debating this issue? Regular Army discipline is to ensure that the individual Soldier does not make this decision in most cases...he allows his NCO or officer to make the decision for him. This prevents "panic." Of course, not all running is panic...especially in the cavalry. Veterans often know, even without being told, when it is right to run for your life, rally someplace, and be ready for more combat. We honed this to an art form practically, in our Civil War. It is never "running" that is bad...often running is a very good thing. It is the timing and circumstance only that is the question. Clair
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Post by wild on Dec 10, 2007 9:13:31 GMT -6
That's right...the crux is WHEN that time is. You'll find officers on both sides of this issue with regards to whether Reno got that time right, or not. Take your pick Reno had the right to make the call not only that but it was his responsibility to make the call.That call just as any decision made on the field of battle can be questioned but it can only be judged in a military court.
It is never "running" that is bad...often running is a very good thing. It is the timing and circumstance only that is the question. And direction.
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Post by conz on Dec 10, 2007 11:10:18 GMT -6
Reno had the right to make the call not only that but it was his responsibility to make the call.That call just as any decision made on the field of battle can be questioned but it can only be judged in a military court. Yes, he had the authority as well as the moral obligation to make "a" call for his command. But whether it was the right call or not can be made by anyone...fellow officers, newspaper editors, future students, etc. Most such judgments anyway are not made by courts within the military...they are more often made by fellow officer relationships in the future and your promotion record...we like things done the informal way, usually. Aye! Clair
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Post by gocav76 on Dec 10, 2007 22:43:20 GMT -6
Any ideas why Custer overloaded Reno's battalion with Interpreters? Isaiah Dorman and Frank Grouard go with Reno, while Custer keeps only Mitch Bouyer. Did Custer entertain the idea that the Indians might come out to negotiate?
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Post by harpskiddie on Dec 10, 2007 23:41:50 GMT -6
Larry:
The scouts with Reno included Rees, Lakotas and the two Crows. Dorman was "attached" to the Lakotas, Fred Girard to the Rees, and nobody to the Crows. Custer had only Crows with him, and not for long, hence only Bouyer. The "attached" is meant to imply that they were responsible for translating when necessary. During the valley fight, the interpreters actually were more or less on their own, along with Reynolds and Herendeen, Varnum and Hare, at least at the start. The scouts went off on their various pony chases and other.
Custer had originally ordered the scouts ahead to chase after the "fleeing" warriors seen by Girard and when they refused to go without the troops going too, ordered Reno ahead, and told him to take the scouts with him.
Gordie MC
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Post by gocav76 on Dec 10, 2007 23:47:37 GMT -6
Thanks Gordie! I didn't know that! I didn't know the Interpreters were assigned in that manner "Dorman was "attached" to the Lakotas, Fred Girard to the Rees, and nobody to the Crows."
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Post by freddy on May 13, 2008 18:39:01 GMT -6
Reno was ordered to strike the southern end of the village. Why did he order his battalion to dismount and fight in the field? Was it because they were not able to reach the village or did he simply fail to follow his orders? When Reno retreated from the field to the trees he had suffered only four casualties if I remember correctly. Could Reno have stayed on the field and fought on? If he had could Benteen and the pack train have reinforced him? Did it matter? Was the village so large that Custer's plan could not work due to the extra time needed for Custer to attack the northern end of the village? Were Reno's orders from Custer impossible to complete? Lots of questions.
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Post by bc on May 13, 2008 19:16:05 GMT -6
Welcome to the board, "freddy"!!!! New members are always welcome. If you are as knowledgable as some of the other Freds around here you will be quite an asset.
Why did Reno dismount and fight in the field? Why did Yates/Custer dismount and fight in the field in the proximity to Ford B?
After reading a little from Donovan and Doran, (I'm not citing them but have read from them) I am beginning to believe that Custer communicated to Reno through Cooke and possibly Keough his new plan (when he saw the size of the village) that he wanted Reno to occupy and bottle up the NAs at the south end of the camp while GAC went to the north end to basically trap the NAs.
Reno's skirmish line was really too far from the vill to be classified as an engagement or attack on the vill unless there were NAs in front to check his advance but there were none to do that. Which may explain why his was more of an action to draw the NA's to him as well as show enough of a surprise and force to start them NAs running away without risking his troops. GAC saw the size of the vill but Reno did not have the same view. I suspect Reno was supposed to strike the south end and either draw the NAs to him or drive them away. Part and partial with that order would be a delay to allow GAC to move north. However, Reno not knowing the northerly extent of the vill and possibly worried about being discovered around ford A just pressed on. None of this he has admitted to possibly to CYA.
Custer/Yates skirmish lines so far from ford B were after GAC saw Reno's retreat. There could have been some NA's on the hill tops by ford B that stopped the advance on ford B but his skirmishers were probably too far away to be an effective attacking force. By skirmishing at ford B, they were basically taking over for Reno in holding the NAs in place, also providing relief to Reno on the run, draw the NAs into a trap up MTC where Keough was ready to pounce on them, all the while GAC/Yates then makes their move to the North in accordance with the plan formed with Reno and the new modification made at the MTC/ford B area.
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Post by crzhrs on May 14, 2008 9:19:45 GMT -6
Supposedly Cooke told Reno/Girard(?) that they were along for the fun. Nothing about new "orders".
Once again Reno was ordered to attack running Indians . . . NOT a village. When he saw the village still standing and warriors congregating in his front he determined it was too dangerous to continue. He stopped and brought the Indians to battle and forfilled his orders.
What happened after is something we continue to debate.
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Post by mcaryf on May 15, 2008 3:19:06 GMT -6
Hi bc
I am not sure where you get the idea that Custer had seen the village before Cooke and Keogh accompanied Reno's column to Ford A. He might have had a report from Varnum but if Varnum had seen anything it was only elements of the near end.
In my opinion the only reason that Cooke and Keogh accompanied Reno's column was to see if the Ford was going to be contested and to check that Reno got across satisfactorily and continued his advance.
Hi Freddy
The purpose of a cavalry charge was to destroy the cohesion of an enemy and possibly their will to fight. In the case of a charge against Indians, cohesion was not an issue since they did not have any to lose. Thus the question is would Reno continuing his charge have destroyed the warriors will to fight? I think the answer that Reno deduced was clearly no since he could see the scale of the village and that the warriors were defending their families and their possessions.
It was a reasonably judgement by Reno that the loss of his own battalion's cohesion by continuing the charge into the village was too high a price versus any possible benefit. He therefore switched to Plan B by deploying long range fire where he would still expect to have a significant advantage and to fullfil his function of fixing the enemy. Unfortunately his ability to do this for any great time was limited by the disparity in numbers and the warriors' movement round his flank. Once he retreated into the timber the immediate threat he offered to the village was much reduced and he could be contained by a smaller force. Whether the Indian command and control was up to fighting on two fronts is of course an interesting debating point but they did have more than enough to deal with Custer and contain Reno.
The likelihood of the pack train being able to join Reno was pretty remote so the most probable outcome of Reno staying in the timber was that Custer would still be destroyed, as I do not think the extra warriors freed up from Reno were really necessary to achieve that, and the rest of the 7th would have gone the same way before Terry arrived.
Regards
Mike
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