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Post by quincannon on Jan 24, 2015 1:54:45 GMT -6
Slight point of order here regarding when Reno took a drink
I did not take a drop of whiskey until the firing ceased - about 12 o'clock.
I did not take a drop of whiskey until the firing ceased. About 12 o'clock
Did he mean he did not take a drop of whiskey unit the firing ceased about 12 o'clock?
Or did he mean that he did not take a drop of whiskey until the firing ceased (at some undetermined time not mentioned), and about 12 o'clock he took a drink
The answer would depend on the tone and inflection of the person giving the answer I would think.
Which one was it Scarface? Same words with two different meanings. It could be inconsistent, and then it could be a complete telling of fact with no inconsistency at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 6:05:26 GMT -6
One point to you Beth. Probably not a fair comparison. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt with Weir. Which comparison isn't far? The fire captain, or that he was a drunk? Not a confrontation, just want to know because if a simile doesn't work, it's useless and I won't use it again.l Beth My comparison of Weir/Reno. I conceded the point to you.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 24, 2015 6:05:36 GMT -6
Beth Herendeen at the Reno Court of Inquiry. A Terrible Glory: Custer and the Little Bighorn - the Last Great ... books.google.com/books?isbn=0316029114James Donovan - 2008 - History These orders to mount, dismount, and mount were heard by Herendeen (Graham , The Reno Court of Inquiry: Abstract, 82). Private William Taylor later wrote ... Of course Herendeen didn't like Reno. Thanks! I really appreciate that. I will have to go read it in context. Reno didn't ingratiate himself to the hired help did he. I've read bits and pieced of Herendeen's recollections and sometimes I wonder if he was at the same battle as everyone else. Beth There was bad blood between these two, Reno would not even speak to him if he could avoid it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 6:14:35 GMT -6
Terry must have had a lot of respect for Herendeen.
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Post by montrose on Jan 24, 2015 6:29:18 GMT -6
[quote source="/ 1. Reno on being asked about his advance and dismount at the RCOI, “I could see Indians coming out from a ravine where they evidently had hid themselves…I said to myself at once that I could not successfully make an offensive charge. Their numbers had thrown me on the defensive.” After further questioning on the second day, “It was afterward developed that if I had gone two or three hundred yards further, I should have thrown my command into a ditch”. So why did he order dismount? Because of numbers? His second statement would indicate he wasn’t aware of the ditch until afterwards. 2. Only one casualty on the mounted advance. One confirmed death in the timber and a small number of additionally injured. Why was he so quick to back pedal? 3. The “order” to leave timber; Per Reno on the decision to leave the timber for Reno Hill, “…I would lose part of the command”. Despite recognizing this risk he did not in any way attempt to mitigate the risk. No rear guard action; just a panicked retreat. On further questioning; Q – State what became of the wounded men that were left in the timber? A. I suppose the Indians killed. Q – What steps were taken to bring them out of there? A. I could not make any efforts; none were made. Interesting to note that while he openly admits he made no provisions for the wounded, he makes a statement concerning the fact that Weir left one man behind on the return from Weir Pt. Seems a little desparate to me. 4. Reno and the accusations that he was drunk. On the 24th his flask is held by Davern, as is typical; on the 25th his quart of Whiskey is in his breast pocket. A number of witnesses have claimed he was drunk. He gets into a fight with Frett who claims he was drunk, whiskey in hand. Why would a civilian lie about that? 5. Reno claims he did not have to encourage the troops on the hill, “I saw no occasion for encouraging either officers or men”, which contradicts his counter argument against Frett, “and I found a good many men and packers who were skulking.” He goes on to say, “I had been there several times to drive out men.” 6. Timing issue, by all accounts the Indians had retreated back to the village no later than 9pm. Reno says he didn’t have a drink until the fighting had stopped after 12am. “I did not drink a drop of whiskey until the firing had ceased – about 12 o’clock at night.” 7. On the move off Reno Hill to the north, Reno and Benteen contradict each other. Reno says order was given by him. Benteen says no order was given. Weir took off on his own, followed afterwards by Benteen. 8. Reno says he gave both orders to move north and retreat to south; later says it was Lt. Hare who gave the order. Leads to the question, who was in charge and what was Reno doing? 9. On the sound of gunfire and volley fire – both Reno and Benteen (B claims he heard a few shots when first at LBH river and a few when he got to Reno Hill; no volley fire) claim not to have heard it or discussed it. Numerous witnesses claim otherwise. 10. Another timing problem for me is the move north. Fred has in his timeline the GAC engagement ending at 4.40; at 4.45 Indians start the move towards Weir Pt/Benteen identifies the position as untenable. The Indians have now been in battle for approx. 3 hours. They have just inflicted a massive defeat on the 7th Cav with 200 plus dead troopers and officers laying in the field of battle. The Indians only took 5 minutes to celebrate, scalp, mutilate, and pillage before advancing towards the troops on Weir Pt? I believe Godfrey, McDougall, Davern, Martini could have been closer to the departure time than Edgerly – 5.00pm. Would add further questions to what exactly was going on for 2 plus hours on Reno Hill. According to Davern no skirmish lines were put out until after the command had returned from Weir Pt. No defensive precautions because the Indians had moved north to tackle GAC. 11. Benteen statement at the RCOI when asked about Reno – “He was as cool as he is now….had lost his hat.” 12. Benteen was asked did he seek permission to proceed towards GAC, “Not at all; I supposed GAC was able to take care of himself.” This despite having seen Reno whooped and an order to “be quick.” Benteen also stated that he moved at a trot from the moment he left GAC to when he met Reno on Reno Hill. I find this remarkably strange considering orders to "be quick" and knowledge the command was engaged ahead. Weir on a number occassions expresses frustration. 13. Reno clearly contradicts himself by saying he had since learnt GAC command was alienated by the time he had retreated to Reno Hill. He knew this not to be true because of the gunfire and reported volley fire. But it fit the narrative. 14. Wasting 30 mins of his time and others to search for the body of his Adjutant. While I accept previous comments about him being an officer and desire to have his body returned, I do not believe Reno went down to recover important documents or anything such. A wedding ring and keys is all that was recovered. His body was found at the bottom of the hill by the river. Reno and others spent approx.. 30 mins looking for him; would suggest that the Indians had vacated the area. Per Reno, “he was my Adjutant and a great favorite and friend of mine.” He mentions nothing about recovering important papers or documents. 15. On the retreat to Reno Hill, losses 1/3 of his command in a panicked, chaotic, every man for himself and then claims on reaching the top that it wasn't a retreat it was a "charge". Really!?! While all of this is ground long covered, it makes up some of the reasons why I have suspicions about the behavior and actions of Reno and Benteen. What if Reno had held his skirmish line for 10 more minutes, held the timber for fifteen more before overseeing an organized retreat? Would the 500 or so Indians that left to go fight GAC been held in for 30 more minutes? Would that have made the slightest bit of difference? Would the extra minutes have allowed Keogh to hold the line till GAC regrouped with him? Would Benteen have continued past Reno Hill (since Reno would still be in the valley) to Weir Pt to show the Indians additional force? How would the Indians have reacted if Reno had held, GAC brings his command to action and Benteen comes over the hill? I don’t know….maybe they all would have died that day. Maybe the DeRubio was right, they survived because of Reno. Scarface, Thanks for making an effort to use facts to support your argument. I see a vast improvement from your initial posts here. This post allows analysis of facts and opinion. Nice work. QC, Cut him some slack. He is clearly making an effort. Respectfully, William
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 24, 2015 6:41:46 GMT -6
Well Mr. Rodgers, yesterday and last night was a lovely day in the neighborhood. Much good stuff regarding the RCOI, I have always felt there were flaws in it. Nobody from company M was called, I always wondered why. The army gave Reno this court, but was it for him or them? Much like us discussing it 138 years later, it was far more than water cooler discussion, back in the day. Congress was being lobbied by a dime novelist and others to investigate. I think the military was told to do their own laundry, put this behind us. The new president and congress wanted to move on. I don't think anyone expressed any desire for a particular outcome. Let the chips fall where they may, get this behind us and lets move on.
The above is only my opinion. My opinion has been moved over the years. Even my opinion of Jesse Lee, thanks Fred I did some further research on the guy because of you.
Regards, Tom
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Post by montrose on Jan 24, 2015 7:04:45 GMT -6
Tom,
Reno was beaten. Losing a battle is not a court martial offense.
The primary cause of the LBH loss was the scattering of the regiment across the prairie. A regiment of 12 companies ended up fighting in 8 elements, all out of supporting range of any other.
Reno's primary failure was not realizing that Custer had not entered the valley. He had sent two messengers to GAC requesting help, and nothing showed up.
He should have stopped his advance and retreated to Ford A at least a mile before the timber position. Reno was too aggressive. He went two miles form Ford A with his left flank in the air. The Indians swept around his flank and cut him off from Ford A. Then they got into his rear and mounted a major attack. Reno waited too long to respond.
While Reno was too aggressive at LBH, Custer was too timid. At no point did he take aggressive action up until the moment he died.
There is no doubt that LTC Custer would have been court martialed and kicked out at LBH. Just the valley fight was sufficient. If not a single casualty was incurred outside of the valley, GACs incompetence meant he was unfit for command. Again.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 24, 2015 7:28:51 GMT -6
Montrose, this summation is short and to the point. If it had ever been expressed and appeared in the eastern papers of 1876, we may not be discussing the topic today.
I don't post on the other board, but do on occasion read a bit. I almost want to register to pick up your post and my response so drop them there. It would be worth the price of admission. I won't, however, do it. I have been on this board for a bit over a year and have garnered much, While there are micro aspects to be studied this really puts a wrap on the macro.
I will now go feed the dogs, open the chicken house, refresh my coffee, knowing my time here this AM was not wasted.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 24, 2015 8:17:10 GMT -6
SF: Reno’s battalion suffered 30 odd killed in the whole phase of the valley fight, if however he did decided to continue on with his charge/attack on the village and not formed skirmish, would his casualty rate be higher or lower? Well a few of Reno’s officers think that they would have been butchered if they carried on;
2nd Lt. Hare: had the command gone 500 yards farther mounted, I don’t think he would have got a man out. 1st Lt. DeRudio: I saw that we would have been butchered if we had gone 500 yards further.
Now these officers were there, so do you still think he was wrong to stop and form skirmish lines?
Now after he formed his defence and probably hoping that Custer would show up, the Indians did swing around his left flank, thus cutting him off rather quickly I would imagine, as these officers had no communication system except for face to face, so the chances of any mounted enemy swinging around one flank without the other flank knowing anything about it, could easily happen, and when you do react it would be too late.
Ian.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 8:58:47 GMT -6
Thanks Montrose. Much appreciated.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 9:04:04 GMT -6
SF: Reno’s battalion suffered 30 odd killed in the whole phase of the valley fight, if however he did decided to continue on with his charge/attack on the village and not formed skirmish, would his casualty rate be higher or lower? Well a few of Reno’s officers think that they would have been butchered if they carried on; 2nd Lt. Hare: had the command gone 500 yards farther mounted, I don’t think he would have got a man out. 1st Lt. DeRudio: I saw that we would have been butchered if we had gone 500 yards further. Now these officers were there, so do you still think he was wrong to stop and form skirmish lines? Now after he formed his defence and probably hoping that Custer would show up, the Indians did swing around his left flank, thus cutting him off rather quickly I would imagine, as these officers had no communication system except for face to face, so the chances of any mounted enemy swinging around one flank without the other flank knowing anything about it, could easily happen, and when you do react it would be too late. Ian. Ian, the vast majority of the casualties were the result of Reno's chaotic retreat. I don't disagree with forming the skirmish lines in hindsight. At the time though Reno appears, per his testimony, to have been unaware of the ravine ahead. Question I have is way did he abandon the skirmish line so quickly and why did he abandon the timber so quickly. Very few casualties in both engagements. Could he have held out for 30 or so minutes longer and then conducted a more organized retreat. This would have held the Indians in place and perhaps given GAC a better chance of reuniting with Keogh. Keogh's line may have held longer had 500+ Indians not come up from the valley fight.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 24, 2015 9:28:35 GMT -6
Scar, it was not an f---ing retreat, in a retreat you generally leave over ground you are familiar with as you entered over it. If Reno had been asked to hold, through some sort of communication, for reasons stated by you, he might have tried. But, if he had tried, there in all probability would have been no need for the RCOI, and had there been, they would have had far fewer to testify. Holding out for another half hour, there would have been no break out. Think about It, how much ammunition was left when he reached the heights, as it was. Custer still would have died as would Keogh. The only difference would have really been, was that the last thing for the NA's to do was to crush Benteen and those with the packs. The NA's would have had more supplies, more horses, and the squaws et el would have had more bodies to mutilate. There were more than enough warriors in the village and north, to dispose of Custer, especially the way he continued to break up his effective fighting force.
Get off the Reno cycle, it will not fly no matter how you try. There are other places to sell this stuff, after all you bought it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 9:33:27 GMT -6
Beth, I have a copy of the RCOI. Printed it out. That took a few minutes.... All of the points are directly from the report. All the whiskey/drunk talk is from direct testimony. Thanks. I can imagine! And lots and lots of paper. Direct testimony from who though? Do you think they are a reliable person or someone with an axe to grind--not what you've read in another book, but you. Who are the credable witnesses? Who aren't and why? If you don't know the answers read a other people's accounts and recollections of events. Do you think that if Reno was drunk and it caused so many deaths that he wouldn't have faced a court martial long before the time of the RCOI. Remember he is the one who forced the Inquiry. Beth Court martials for drunkeness leading to death would not have been a good thing for the military. The better option was to sweep it all under the carpet. Why no official investigation? A decorated civil war general and his command massacred and there is no formal government or military inquest? Civilians had no reason to lie at the RCOI. They couldn't be charged or face a court martial. Officers probably lied to protect each other, the brand, and their careers.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 24, 2015 9:39:15 GMT -6
Don't start with the above only one courts martial could have come out of this battle, and it was Georgie porgies! You are again becoming tiresome.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 24, 2015 10:31:16 GMT -6
Montrose ask me to cut you slack. You sorely try my soul son.
A decorated ACW general officer. What decoration did Custer receive? Was he awarded the Medal of Honor? That was the only decoration available at the time. His brother was - twice. Do you have information the rest of us do not have? This is exactly what I am talking about, throwing out information with no basis of fact. Montrose is decorated. Fred is decorated, Tom is decorated, AZ is decorated, Carl is decorated, WO is decorated, even I have a couple hanging around in my bottom bureau drawer. But Custer had none. So if he was not "decorated" what can you say that is accurate? He was famous. He probably receive honors in his home town/state. He certainly received promotion. He may have received a few memorial trophies and such like, but he was not decorated with either an award for valor or service by the U S Government. There were none to give but the MOH and he did not get one.
Who was drunk, specifically by name.
Civilians had just as much reason to lie as anyone else. Under certain circumstance an employee of the U S Army including contract employees can be brought to account by their employers.
How do you determine that officers, under oath lied? You are throwing out serious allegations, like "probably lied" with absolutely no basis of proof. In that regard you are no better here in 2015 than Mrs. Custer was in 1876. Where is your proof? You do not have any, and your allegations without proof slander those men.
Why was their no investigation or inquest? Why should there have been. The guy responsible was dead. He had paid the price of his irresponsibility. What would you want them to do dig him up and then shoot him. Does not make much sense does it. If Terry, Sheridan, Sherman, and Grant were satisfied with after action reports of the battle that were submitted, who are you to say they were wrong? Congress had no desire to touch the thing.
What you fail to understand is that those who were there knew what happened, and none of them preferred any charges of drunkenness, cowardly conduct, incompetence, or dereliction. Now what you suggest means that they ALL engaged in a conspiracy. Does that really make sense to you, that all would do that? Remember it would have to include all, those that thought well of Custer, those who thought well of Reno and Benteen, those who did not like any of them, those that loved all of them, and those that did not give a damn.
Dismounting and forming a skirmish line: Do you understand that the standard tactic of the day, and still is, for a mounted unit to advance as far forward as possible or thought prudent, then dismount and continue the attack dismounted. Standard stuff with the dragoon oriented cavalry of 1876, so they may bring their most potent weapons system into the fight. Same thing today with mechanized or motorized infantry, the successor to the dragoon of 76. So when Reno moves forward mounted, then dismounts he is doing nothing but following long established tactical procedure. It was done because of the response of the opposition and not a ditch.
What you don't know could fill several books, but the most important thing you need to know is this. Were I to know or suspect that either of these two men were derelict, incompetent, had lied, had committed perjury, had needlessly sacrificed troops, were cowards, were drunk on duty, had dishonored the United States or the United States Army in any way, or were not nice to their mothers, YOU would have to stand in line BEHIND ME, to give these people what they would then richly deserve. I am 72 years old, and I have been looking at this battle for at least twenty years before you were born, and no such EVIDENCE has surfaced in that time. There is rumor, innuendo, speculation and opinion, plenty of all four, but no EVIDENCE.
You might have learned something here, and you may as Montrose surmises be trying, but you have not done enough of either.
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