Sully in '68

[elisabeth]

Does anyone know if there's ever been a really thorough analysis of Sully's part in the 1868 Indian campaign(s)?

I'm finding it hard to make out whether he was a walking disaster, or was unfairly bounced from the winter campaign.

He seems to have done well enough at establishing the supply base at Camp Supply, and at getting the winter expedition ready to roll from Fort Dodge. On the other hand, there's much merriment, both from enlisted men and from some officers, over his travelling around in an ambulance. (Elliott, for instance, writes scathingly of him to a friend -- but then asks the friend not to pass on his opinions, as Sully is a nice old soul and he doesn't want to hurt his feelings!) And Sheridan, in his memoirs, is delicately rude about Sully's decision to hand out guns to the Indians: "Indian diplomacy outreached his experience". The implication is that it was this decision of Sully's that kicked off the serious raiding that summer.

Certainly he had no success in following up and punishing the depredators -- any more than Custer had had the previous summer. Custer's recall in time for the winter campaign may have been an implied criticism of Sully (though that's unlikely, since he apparently concurred in it) but could equally have been a reflection on Elliott. Benteen says that Sheridan offered him command of the regiment initially, but he declined and suggested Custer instead. Piecing it together, the inference is that Sheridan had no confidence in Elliott's leadership. (It would be nice to know precisely why, of course ...)

Then comes the Crawford/Sully/Custer dispute about rank, when Sheridan rules in Custer's favour and Sully is sent back to Fort Harker. Was he furious? One would think he must have been, but no-one seems to tell us. And what did he do in the following months? He can't have been just twiddling his thumbs; presumably he remained in charge of the supply situation, recruits, remounts, organising what was to be done with the Washita captives, etc. ...

I'd be most grateful to know of any detailed account.

[lbhdan]

Elisabeth--

Langdon Sully (the General's grandson) wrote No Tears for the General, based primarily upon Sully's diaries and letters. The book details Sully's Civil War record, and his accomplishments in the Dakota War campaigns of 1863-65. But the events of 1867 - 69 are handled in just a page or two. (Perhaps because the memories were too painful?)

Here are some excerpts:

"Before he left the Upper Arkansas in May 1869, Sully’s famous lack of diplomatic skill got him into trouble with his commanding officer. He took on as adversary Gen. George Armstrong Custer, a close personal friend of Gen. Phil Sheridan.
…

"Sully had no love for Custer. Certainly he must have been wary of a man who made the jump from captain to brigadier general in one leap and proved to be as arrogant and undependable as Custer was. When Custer arrived at Fort Hays, Sully was out in pursuit of hostile Indians from Fort Dodge into northwestern Oklahoma. He no sooner returned than the animosity that existed between the two men became evident. Custer derided his efforts against the Indians. Sully and Custer had equal commands—a regiment—yet Alfred asked Sheridan to relieve Custer of his command because he was too arrogant, too impulsive, too undisciplined, and knew nothing about fighting Indians. Custer for his part scoffed at a fighting general who rode around in an ambulance (Sully was too sick to get on a horse).

"Sheridan reprimanded Sully, telling him that ‘Custer should be allowed to regulate the affairs of his own regiment and should not be restrained from doing so,’ and sent Sully off on a mission to establish Camp Supply. As soon as Sully came back to his post in March 1869, Sheridan told him he was not satisfied with his performance and had him placed on the unassigned list. General Sherman, who was probably the most powerful figure in the army at that point, reflected Sheridan’s displeasure.

"This may have been a contributing factor in the many transfers of station Sully was to endure, the many requests for leave he was to submit for the next eight years, almost to the time of his death. Seven weeks after he was placed on the unassigned list, waiting for orders that would take him he knew not where, he was sent to Montana as superintendent of Indians there. By September 23, 1870, he was starting another nerve-wracking seven-week wait for orders. He was assigned to the Nineteenth Infantry…then placed in command at Baton Rouge, Louisiana…

"Every move Alfred was forced to make was a step down the ladder. Bit by bit the general’s achievements were being forgotten, and bit by bit the general was dying. Understandably, he became more and more bitter…

"The army granted him sick leave from June 15 to December 11, 1873…In February 1874, while Alfred was en route to take command of Fort Vancouver, Washington, he became so ill in Omaha that he could not report at what was to be his final assigned station until May 13. He was destined to remain at Fort Vancouver…until he died, but there would be two temporary assignments for him. One was a grubby little chore—investigation of the Fetterman Massacre; the other was participation in the Nez Perce Indian War. After this the forgotten general would be allowed to die in peace."

So it would seem that Sully paid a high price for running afoul of Custer/Sheridan...

dan

[elisabeth]

Dan, that's fascinating. Thanks!

I have a copy of the book on order, but rather feared in might skate over this particular episode. While more detail would be even nicer, that's really quite revealing. Animosity on both sides, then ... And I'd not read before that Sully tried to get rid of Custer. Most interesting.

Poor man. What a ghastly life.

Looks as if that year, from March 1868 to March 1869, is crying out to be explored more closely. Hope somebody's done so ...

[lbhdan]

I agree, Elisabeth, the whole story could definitely use a more thorough treatment...

Hoig (in Battle of the Washita) and Greene (in Washita) flesh out the story a bit, but leave me wanting more. (Barnitz also gives some coverage in his volume of letters.)

Does anyone have a copy of Carriker's Fort Supply? I wonder if it provides details about Sully's work there. (My copy, alas, is no longer with me...the result of a too-zealous collection-weeding earlier this year...I knew I'd regret that...)

dan

[elisabeth]

Thank you again -- I wasn't aware of the Carriker book. Sounds promising.

Yes, I do feel that the Custer glamour and the Washita "victory" may have deflected attention from a lot of other stuff that was going on at that time. It's almost become The Custer Story, with everyone else as footnotes. True, Beecher's Island gets some coverage , as does the death of Comstock ... But one feels we're missing a continuous narrative here: the cause-and-effect element. For instance: could it have been Sully's hand-out-the-guns decision that impelled Sheridan to bring back Custer? The timing is suggestive ... And are there first-hand accounts of the impact of the arrival of survivors of the first serious 1868 Indian raid at Fort Harker, Sully's HQ? Did Sully ever express regret for re-arming the Indians? Did his officers criticise him for re-arming them? Were they loyal, or did they think him an idiot? ....... And so it goes on. So much that we don't (yet) know. And for those who may think this is boring minutiae -------- it does feed in hugely, I think, to Custer's mindset at that time, and that of his fellow 7th Cavalry officers. (Which in turn could feed into the Elliott affair, and thus in turn to LBH.)

I'll look out for the Carriker book. But meanwhile, if anyone knows of any article or whatever that has studied this episode in detail -- well, I'd be ecstatic to hear of it!

[harpskiddie]

Peter Cozzens: Eyewitnesses to the Indian Wars, Volume 3, Stackpole, contains a section devoted to Sully's campaign on the North Canadian [?], as well as the Washita and etc, I'm not sure how detailed it is insofar as the machinations of those involved is concerned; but you might check it out at your local library .

Gordie,
you say you love the Beatles and the way they walk that walk; but you would soon get tired of hearin' them talk that talk. It wouldn't happen with me....................................

["Hunk" Papa]

Elisabeth, the following may help:-

1. There are of course some (biased) references in 'My Life on the Plains'
2. There is some useful information in Robert Utley's 'Frontier Regulars' especially Page 161 Note 24 citing Sheridan's Annual Report pages 45-56 issued in 1869 and Godfrey's article 'Some Reminiscences, including the Washita Battle' that appeared in the 1928 Cavalry Journal 37.
3. Further references in Paul Hutton's 'Phil Sheridan and His Army' Page 383, Note 43 citing Lonnie J. White's article 'General Sully's Expedition to the North Canadian' that appeared in Journal of the West No.11 of January 1972, Note 46 citing another of Godfrey's articles 'Some Reminiscences, Including an account of General Sully's Expedition against the Southen Plains Indians' that appeared in the July 1927 Cavalry Journal, 36, and Note 47 citing White, 'Sully's Expedition' again.
4. Further references in Louis Kraft's 'Custer and the Cheyenne' which cites several publications in the footnotes to each page.

Hunk

[markland]

elisabeth said:

Thank you again -- I wasn't aware of the Carriker book. Sounds promising.

Yes, I do feel that the Custer glamour and the Washita "victory" may have deflected attention from a lot of other stuff that was going on at that time. It's almost become The Custer Story, with everyone else as footnotes. True, Beecher's Island gets some coverage , as does the death of Comstock ... But one feels we're missing a continuous narrative here: the cause-and-effect element. For instance: could it have been Sully's hand-out-the-guns decision that impelled Sheridan to bring back Custer? The timing is suggestive ... And are there first-hand accounts of the impact of the arrival of survivors of the first serious 1868 Indian raid at Fort Harper, Sully's HQ? Did Sully ever express regret for re-arming the Indians? Did his officers criticise him for re-arming them? Were they loyal, or did they think him an idiot? ....... And so it goes on. So much that we don't (yet) know. And for those who may think this is boring minutiae -------- it does feed in hugely, I think, to Custer's mindset at that time, and that of his fellow 7th Cavalry officers. (Which in turn could feed into the Elliott affair, and thus in turn to LBH.)

I'll look out for the Carriker book. But meanwhile, if anyone knows of any article or whatever that has studied this episode in detail -- well, I'd be ecstatic to hear of it!

Shame on you Elisabeth! You are approaching HERESY! You should know that the wars on the American Frontier revolved only around GAC and to imply otherwise, well, I expect to see you figuratively burnt at the stake in the next President's Letter from LBHA. I am sure the GOBs would perform the task literally if they could get their pea-brains around the concept of heavier-than-air flight.

Billy

[markland]

harpskiddie said:

Peter Cozzens: Eyewitnesses to the Indian Wars, Volume 3, Stackpole, contains a section devoted to Sully's campaign on the North Canadian [?], as well as the Washita and etc, I'm not sure how detailed it is insofar as the machinations of those involved is concerned; but you might check it out at your local library .

Gordie,
you say you love the Beatles and the way they walk that walk; but you would soon get tired of hearin' them talk that talk. It wouldn't happen with me....................................

Gordie, that is subtitled The War For the Southern Plains or some-such isn't it ( my copy is behind a couple of other stacks of books and I do not wish to tempt fate and become a casualty of an overflowing bookcase.) Anyway, I have noticed that you can find all the Cozzen's "Eyewitness" books on Amazon or B&N in their Used sections as reasonable prices now.

Billy

[elisabeth]

Hunk and Gordie, thanks. Billy, you're right about the prices getting more reasonable; I found a copy of Eyewitnesses (it's Vol. 3, Conquering the Southern Plains) on Amazon this morning for not too much at all. That's got Godfrey's piece, and Gibson's, and the A. C. Rallya WOTW piece, plus plenty more that I'm not famiiiar with on this campaign, so it should be a start at least.

Yes, I can feel those flames around my feet already ...

[rch]

It's unlikely that Sully was transferred to unassigned status because he ran afoul of Sheridan. Under the Act of 3 Mar 1869, the 3rd Infantry was consolidated with 1/2 of the 37th Infanrty. The consolidation was official as of 11 Aug 69, but it's not clear when various officers actually moved to the unassigned list. As of the 15th of Mar 69, less than 2 weeks after the congressional act, all the field officers of the 3rd Infantry (Col Hoffman, Lt Col Sully, and Maj Douglas) were transferred to unassigned. The Regimental Adjutant was unassigned eff 7 Jun and on 11 Aug the new Adj and Quartermaster took over. Except for the Maj, all these officers were replaced by officers of the same rank from the 37th Infantry. The major of the 37th Inf was transferred first to the 5th Inf eff 15 Mar 69, then to unassigned, then retired.

Sully was promoted to Col. in 1873.

I think it is possible that a great deal of what happened during the 1869 to 70 reorganization was done retroactively. For instance, Maj Flemming of the 37th Inf may never have reported to the 5th Inf. His name may simply have filled a box on a chart on the Adjutant General's wall.

rch

[harpskiddie]

rch:

Great information, as per usual. Thanks for your contributions.

Gordie,
you used to live over yonder, down by the railroad track.......................................................

[elisabeth]

Dan, thanks for the Carriker recommendation. I've just found a copy on Amazon. Shall look forward to it.