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Post by crzhrs on Jan 10, 2007 8:28:35 GMT -6
Any relation to Killer Kowalski . . . The Claw Hold?
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Post by elisabeth on Jan 10, 2007 8:30:28 GMT -6
Somewhere recently I seem to recall reading about some disease which afflicted army horses during that period. Now to figure out where I read it ... Would it have been that John Gray article about the veterinary service? www.kancoll.org/khq/1977/77_3_gray.htm
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Post by elisabeth on Jan 10, 2007 10:40:33 GMT -6
Billy, you'll probably have found much more info by the time you read this -- but a quick trawl through Nichols' Men With Custer shows an astonishingly high number of men who were detached to Terry's column, mostly detached on June 22nd.
As orderlies to Terry: George Brainard of B, Patrick Coakley of K, Patrick Lynch of I, Robert L. Murphy of I. To the QMD: Hiram Erastus Brown of F (QMD teamster and cook), George Gaffney of I (mechanic with wagon train), Francis Hegner of F (labourer with QMD). And at least another dozen on unspecified "detached service with Terry's column", as well as one (Pendle of E) as hospital attendant, and the slightly dodgy Dennis Lynch of F supposedly "looking after Custer's baggage".
On the face of it, it seems a frightful waste of Custer's manpower. You'd think Terry and Nowlan could draw their assorted flunkeys from Gibbon's force, which they're travelling with anyway, rather than take what amounts to at least half a company from Custer ...
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Post by fred on Jan 10, 2007 11:09:56 GMT -6
Careful w/ the Nichols book; it has as many errors as the original "Hammer" book. I have problems w/ the Nichols book starting on page 1.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by elisabeth on Jan 10, 2007 11:22:06 GMT -6
OK!! Billy's going to primary sources, as always, so we'll get the genuine article from him. (Just had a vague memory of various people mentioned as orderlies here and there, and wanted to verify it ...)
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jan 10, 2007 14:23:46 GMT -6
Careful w/ the Nichols book; it has as many errors as the original "Hammer" book. I have problems w/ the Nichols book starting on page 1. Here you go, breaking my heart again. I usually call the book "Hammer" although I usually use the newest Nichols edition. I would think by now that all the corrections had been made; isn't this at least the third edition? I know Vern Smalley had some corrections in one of his Mysteries books. The reason I'm beating this dead horse is that I often quote Hammer/Nichols when people send in questions, and I've used that as my basis for the cavalry listings on the website. Please stop telling me it isn't the bible of LBH!
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 10, 2007 15:41:00 GMT -6
So, is Commanche counted in that official return? I'd bet so, but he falls in no category.
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Post by markland on Jan 11, 2007 3:44:24 GMT -6
So, is Commanche counted in that official return? I'd bet so, but he falls in no category. Sorry, no certain way to answer that unless I go and make copies of the complete May returns as the companies were not so fragmented as they were in the June return. Hopefully this weekend. Billy
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Post by markland on Jan 16, 2007 15:10:55 GMT -6
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Post by elisabeth on Jan 17, 2007 5:14:20 GMT -6
Hmmm. Interesting. Sounds as if it's addressing a scam that had been going on for some time.
Benteen mentions in a letter to his wife that two of his horses had been wounded, adding that they're "government" horses; so he's one who was using "public" horses at the battle. Keogh's second horse, Paddy, we know was a government horse. Mathey stated (Hammer, Custer in 76) that Comanche was too: "if Col. Keogh ever bought the horse I never heard of it and I believe the horse belonged to the U.S. at the time Col. Keogh was killed". (Mathey was Keogh's Lieutenant at the time Keogh started riding Comanche.)
Somewhere online -- I'll try to find it again -- there's the official form listing Comanche as unserviceable. Can't remember its date, so it may not throw any light; if the regiment had bought Comanche from Keogh's estate, he would presumably become a government horse even if he'd been privately owned before. But it does seem more likely that he was owned by the army; the stories of Keogh buying him have an apocryphal ring to them.
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Post by elisabeth on Jan 17, 2007 5:26:27 GMT -6
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Post by harpskiddie on Jan 18, 2007 15:39:33 GMT -6
Elisabeth:
That same article by John Gray that you mentioned supra conatains a quote from The Chicago Times 20 August 1876 saying that the horse "owned by Captain Keogh" was on the steamboat Durfee en route to Fort Lincoln. The article was unattributed and written from the mouth of the Rosebud. I suppose that is still not dispositive on the issue.
Gordie
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Post by elisabeth on Jan 19, 2007 1:36:02 GMT -6
Gordie,
Well spotted. I forget for the moment just who the Chicago Times correspondent was -- i.e. whether reliable or not -- but presumably he got his information from someone who knew, such as Nowlan. Comanche does have a U.S. brand, but he'd have been given that when first bought by the army; it would have been impossible, and pointless, for Keogh to try to get rid of that when/if he bought the horse for himself.
He had bought at least one troop horse before; he mentions it in a letter in, I think, 1867. He says he's "bought a fine horse out of my troop", very fast, for $50, and he plans to sell it on eventually to help fund his trip to Europe. So he wasn't averse to buying troop horses; it's not at all unlikely he owned Comanche. But even Elizabeth Atwood Lawrence couldn't get at a definitive answer on this question, so it may remain for ever uncertain.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Jul 30, 2007 16:35:19 GMT -6
Vern Smalley on Page 2-11 of Little Big Horn Mysteries (Vol.1) gives full details of the Yellowstone Depot, showing that it existed from June 10 to August 8, 1876 and was on the east shore near the mouth of the Powder River and that Custer left 130 of his men there. This makes it most likely where Sergeant Caddle was located. Also mentioned in Stewart's 'Custer's Luck' Page 482 "a brief stop was made [July 3 1876] at the Powder River base", Gray 'Centennial Campaign' Pages 272/3, Bradley 'Journal' Page 138, Willert 'Edge of Darkness' Pages 137 & 141, Willert 'LBH Diary' Page 235 and Darling's 'Sad & Terrible Blunder' Pages 130. Hope this helps Diane - we must stop meeting like this.
grichard
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Post by Diane Merkel on Aug 5, 2007 14:05:50 GMT -6
Thanks for the Smalley source about Yellowstone. I trust his research. That information will make Caddle's descendants happy. Now to tackle the story of Caddle "being sent for" to assist during the battle . . . ! I hope they don't continue to beat that dead horse.
Let's continue meeting here, Hunk, because I know you have a lot to share!
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