|
Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 6, 2007 10:15:22 GMT -6
Where's Commanche listed in the horses? Serviceable, apparently. Of course, this doesn't inform regarding men and mounts on Reno Hill prior to Weir advance.
|
|
alanw
Junior Member
Posts: 74
|
Post by alanw on Jan 6, 2007 11:40:27 GMT -6
Darkcloud
Where's Commanche listed in the horses?I might be wrong, but I believe Keogh owned Comanche, & this could explain why it didn't appear in the records as he wasn't a Military mount. Alan
|
|
|
Post by harpskiddie on Jan 6, 2007 14:30:09 GMT -6
DC:
It may not inform exactly, but it does inform.
Gordie
|
|
|
Post by Diane Merkel on Jan 6, 2007 22:02:04 GMT -6
Thanks, all!
I'm a bit disappointed because I have always considered Hammer's book the bible of the Seventh at LBH. It seems there was quite a difference between the Yellowstone Depot and the Powder River Depot, so a correction should be made to Caddle's bio.
The Caddle family story does have him assisting the wounded at Powder River and with the later burial party, which are also substantiated by Marsh's book. At least they got those parts right!
|
|
|
Post by harpskiddie on Jan 7, 2007 11:01:01 GMT -6
Diane:
Some people's research is of more biblical proportions than others' and the perceptions change over time. Think of the difference in how Graham and Dustin are viewed today, than they were in the decades prior to the sixties or seventies, or how we on this board have the 'temerity' to disagree with the gurus Gray, Willert, and etc. on factual matters, not just matters of opinion.
Wait until Fred finishes his book, or Mike his, or dc his [well, maybe not], or Vern his, or I mine, and you'll be reading the new bibles, wondering why you ever practised the religion of others.
Gordie
|
|
|
Post by rch on Jan 8, 2007 13:00:41 GMT -6
Billy,
I'm pretty sure that the Yellowstone Depot mentioned in the 30 Jun returns was the one at the point where the Powder River enters the Yellowstone.
One of the problems is that the all the depots were on the Yellowstone.
According to Terry's Department report for 1876, the 1st depot was established near the site of Stanley's Stockade near the mouth of the Glendive Creek. As the Dakota Column neared the Powder River, Terry ordered a boat load of supplies to be sent up to the mouth of the Powder. A few days later in early June, Terry order the 1st depot broken up and all supplies brought up and a new depot set up at the Powder. It was here that the dismounted and other men of the 7th Cavalry were left. It was not until late July that Terry again moved the depot. He brought it up the Yellowstone and placed it on the north bank near the mouth of the Rosebud.
The north bank of the Yellowstone was also the site were Terry placed his whole command in camp on 2 Jul. I beleive this was near the mouth of the Big Horn River.
Fort Pease (which was never a military post) figured in the march of Gibbon's command, but I don't think it was established as Depot. It appears that Gibbons Column had to be supplied and resupplied by wagon train from the posts in western Montana, at least until he met Terry. I don't know how far up the Yellowstone the steamers could go.
rch
|
|
|
Post by fred on Jan 8, 2007 13:48:56 GMT -6
Wait until Fred finishes his book, or Mike his... or I mine, and you'll be reading the new bibles, wondering why you ever practised the religion of others. Ah-h-h-h-h! but Gordie, it is finished! At least the fictional version... . That's the one for the winter evening in front of the fireplace. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by harpskiddie on Jan 8, 2007 21:58:02 GMT -6
rch:
The June 30 returns were, I believe, done on the north bank of the Yellowstone opposite the mouth of the Big Horn [more or less]. Steamers could navigate up the Big Horn to the mouth of the Little Horn, dependng upon the water level.
Gordie
|
|
|
Post by rch on Jan 9, 2007 12:47:51 GMT -6
More on Yellowstone camps.
I checked Stewart's "Custer"s Luck." The Far West had been brought up the Big Horn to the mouth of the Little Big Horn. It was there that Terry's command met the Far West before dawn on 30 Jun. The wounded were put aboard the Far West and sent down to the Yellowstone, where a base camp was established near the mouth of the Big Horn. The Far West remained there until the rest of Terry's command arrived on 2 Jul. The Far West had to stay there in order to ferry Terry's whole command to the north bank of the Yellowstone.
The Far West began its famous run Ft Lincoln on 3 Jul.
The regimental returns were probably done when the 7th went into camp near the mouth of the Little Big Horn on 30 Jun. The wounded men listed as being at the Yellowstone were probably the men in transit to that place aboard the Far West.
There is an interesting category of 7th Cavalrymen. These were men who were not with the regiment at the battle, but who were according to Nichols present on 30 Jun. I've wondered if some of those men may have been placed aboard the Far West after their horses broke down between the Powder and the Rosebud or during Reno's scout.
rch
|
|
|
Post by fred on Jan 9, 2007 14:32:51 GMT -6
rch--
Why wouldn't they just be men brought up from the PRD?
Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 9, 2007 21:02:21 GMT -6
So....the Army stole Keogh's horse? Did they buy it from his estate? Or just took it? And, are we sure that all horses counted were Army and not privately owned?
|
|
|
Post by markland on Jan 10, 2007 1:17:40 GMT -6
So....the Army stole Keogh's horse? Did they buy it from his estate? Or just took it? And, are we sure that all horses counted were Army and not privately owned? DC, I am not sure of how it played out after LBH but I am sure from reading too many regimental returns that the Army fixed the blame on responsible officers for losses of Army horses. The verbiage usually goes, "Two horses killed which Capt. John Doe is responsible." If I had known this would come up I would have copied something from the Serial Set about reimbursement to officers for the loss of privately owned horses. Officers were guaranteed rations for themselves as well as as food for their horses. I haven't run into a regulation, yet, specifying how they are reimbursed if a privately-owned horse is KIA. I will look into that the next time I am around the Serial Set. Be good, Billy
|
|
|
Post by rch on Jan 10, 2007 1:23:40 GMT -6
Fred
It's possible that the men did come up from the PRD, but it would have to be a little more complicated. To rejoin the regiment by 30 Jun they would have had to be aboard the Far West. I'm not sure of all the movements of the Far West. It would all depend on when the Far West made its last run to the PRD before 30 Jun, and if the Josephine made a run between the PRD and the Far West. As I understand it the Far West was kept pretty busy once the 7th marched from the Rosebud. It had to ferry Gibbon's command across the Yellowstone, and according to Terry, it served as a floating supply base for Gibbon, because Gibbon's pack train was so small.
Men who became sick or whose horses broke down on the march to the Rosebud could not be abandoned there. I'm not totally wedded to the idea of horses breaking down. Some men may have been dismounted so that their companies would have a couple of extra horses and the returns would indicate that they did have extra horses. I need to do a little more thinking about the horse returns provided by Billy.
It is also possible that some time before 22 Jun some of the men detailed to the PRD were in turn detailed to the Far West.
Billy
I doubt that a K Company horse would be transferred to Company M. Those horses were company property, and I'm sure company commander held on to their horses even more tightly than they held on to their men. Then there's the idea of transferring a horse from a company with 41 serviceable horses to one that had 64. Besides if the horse were formally transferred, it should show up on both the returns for K and M, and M would have to account for 65 in Jun.
There is a story that an L Company man was able to secure a K Company horse. If this happened, it may have been a loan arranged between the company commanders. The man was killed, but whether he was killed with L riding a borrowed horse or whether he was a borrowed man riding with Company K, the horse still should have shown up on the K Company returns.
K company seemed to be particularly short of horses. K was the only company stationed in Mississippi, I wonder if some disease may have worked its way through the company.
Billy, thank you for providing those returns.
rch
|
|
|
Post by elisabeth on Jan 10, 2007 4:42:56 GMT -6
Could any of the mysterious absentees have been men seconded to HQ staff as strikers, orderlies, QM clerks, etc.? Or are those men already accounted for?
Not sure that any horses broke down on Reno's scout; a couple of mules did, but I think they were the only casualties. (Interestingly, despite all the flak Reno caught for exhausting his stock on that scout, Willert says in To the Edge of Darkness that they set off with twenty-five spare mules as replacements. So in fact he did less badly than expected ...)
|
|
|
Post by markland on Jan 10, 2007 8:23:27 GMT -6
Fred It's possible that the men did come up from the PRD, but it would have to be a little more complicated. To rejoin the regiment by 30 Jun they would have had to be aboard the Far West. I'm not sure of all the movements of the Far West. It would all depend on when the Far West made its last run to the PRD before 30 Jun, and if the Josephine made a run between the PRD and the Far West. As I understand it the Far West was kept pretty busy once the 7th marched from the Rosebud. It had to ferry Gibbon's command across the Yellowstone, and according to Terry, it served as a floating supply base for Gibbon, because Gibbon's pack train was so small. Men who became sick or whose horses broke down on the march to the Rosebud could not be abandoned there. I'm not totally wedded to the idea of horses breaking down. Some men may have been dismounted so that their companies would have a couple of extra horses and the returns would indicate that they did have extra horses. I need to do a little more thinking about the horse returns provided by Billy. It is also possible that some time before 22 Jun some of the men detailed to the PRD were in turn detailed to the Far West. Billy I doubt that a K Company horse would be transferred to Company M. Those horses were company property, and I'm sure company commander held on to their horses even more tightly than they held on to their men. Then there's the idea of transferring a horse from a company with 41 serviceable horses to one that had 64. Besides if the horse were formally transferred, it should show up on both the returns for K and M, and M would have to account for 65 in Jun. There is a story that an L Company man was able to secure a K Company horse. If this happened, it may have been a loan arranged between the company commanders. The man was killed, but whether he was killed with L riding a borrowed horse or whether he was a borrowed man riding with Company K, the horse still should have shown up on the K Company returns. K company seemed to be particularly short of horses. K was the only company stationed in Mississippi, I wonder if some disease may have worked its way through the company. Billy, thank you for providing those returns. rch RCH, it is my pleasure to be able to contribute something besides questions and conjecture. Besides, you guys can do more to place those numbers into some kind of relevance than I. I agree with you regarding the inter-company horse-swap. If that did happen prior to the battle, there should be some regimental or QM department paperwork in existence. The disease idea has merit. Somewhere recently I seem to recall reading about some disease which afflicted army horses during that period. Now to figure out where I read it and determine whether I remember it in the correct context. As far as men belonging to the 7th on detached service (non-wounded) at Yellowstone River I only see three possibilities: with the Custer column, with the Terry/Gibbons column or on board the Far West. Since neither column was at the river until the 28th, I suspect the latter option as Pvt. Lee, Co. "I", is shown arriving at Yellowstone River on June 26. I wonder if Nowlan had a striker or clerk from the regiment assigned to him? When scanning those returns today, I will see if anyone was assigned to that duty. Gotta go, Claw P.S. "Claw" is the nickname considerately bestowed on me by Fred. It is very appropriate too!
|
|