Horsemanship at the Little Big Horn

[elisabeth]

The latest LBHA Newsletter mentions Robert E. Doran's Horsemanship at the Little Big Horn: A Study of U.S. Army Tactics, A Horseman Looks at the Custer Fight. Has anyone read this?

There don't seem to be any reviews around yet, or at least not on Amazon. Still, if it throws even some light on the vexed issue of training, it'll be valuable. So I've ordered it anyway, sight unseen, and will report -- if nobody else reviews it in the meantime, that is!

[AZ Ranger]

Thanks Elisabeth I ordered it also.

[Diane Merkel]

Bob Doran sent Chuck an advance copy. Chuck says the book offers a new and fresh perspective on the Little Big Horn and that you'll enjoy it!

[elisabeth]

That's good to know, Diane. I'll look forward t it. Thanks!

[mwkeogh]

elisabeth said:

That's good to know, Diane. I'll look forward t it. Thanks!

I've ordered the book too. I am looking forward to reading the book. Clair & Ranger, you guys should probably get hold of this as well.

[mwkeogh]

I just received my copy a few days ago. The first chapter is an excellent review of mounted formations used at the time, as well a synopsis on the horsemanship skills and training of the mounted trooper. The next chapter is an excellent overview of the trail the 7th Cavalry took down from the divide to Ford A, and the exact point the author believes that Custer's battalions turned to the north (quite close to Ford A).....this spot was identified by Benteen's statement: "well, here we have two horns of a dilemma." The author makes an excellent analysis of the Lone tepee mystery, illustrating that there were actually 3 different locations of "lone tepees", the one closest to Ford A was the one set on fire. He also identifies Girard's lookout as well as Varnum's lookout on topo maps. He identifies each ford the 7th used to march down Ash (Reno) Creek on their way to the valley. Very impressive field work based on actually riding the terrain on horseback.

One major drawback to the book is the numerous spelling errors and incorrect punctuation. The author really needs to invest in a good editor.

I have only read the first two chapters so I will have to send in an update as I get further into it. His research is based mainly on Camp's research. The author seems to have discovered much of Camp's papers in university collections which have never yet been catalogued nor published which he uses to advance some of his unique and very different interpretations of what happened and why. It makes for some very interesting reading and opens the door to new speculations. Some very good topo maps and route movements noted across them that really puts the march and formations into perspective.

Clair, Ranger, Gordie, Elizabeth, Blaque, Errki, Fred, Rch, Darkcloud, GAC, & George Mabry....I think you should get this book.

[elisabeth]

Great -- sounds like a really worthwhile investment.

My copy is still slowly trudging its way across the Atlantic, so this preview is much appreciated. Thanks!

[George Armstrong Custer]

Thanks for the review, Keogh. This sounds like that rare bird - a new book on the LBH which has something genuinely fresh to offer.

mwkeogh said:

He also identifies Girard's lookout as well as Varnum's lookout on topo maps. Very impressive field work based on actually riding the terrain on horseback.

I'd be interested to learn whether Doran has been persuaded by Vern Smalley's arguments on this location?

ciao,
GAC

[harpskiddie]

I'm guessing that the three different locations for lone tipis don't mean three different tipis, but rather three different locations given by witnesses for the lone tipi. If he means three distinct tipis, then his research becomes somewhat suspect [and the witnesses become gaga].

I also suspect that the Varnum lookout mentioned is not that Varnum Lookout [capital L] proposed by Vern Smalley, but a spot on the "Benteen side" of Ash Creek, from whence Varnum saw Indians in the Little Horn valley and from where he saw the high ground on the "Custer side" which he later mentioned to Custer. I omit east and west etc. directional references, since they tend to be confusing. As Varnum might have said: "Look out!!"

Perhaps Keogh can elucidate?

Gordie,
what good is a song if the words just don't belong, and a dream must be a dream for two........

[mwkeogh]

harpskiddie said:

I'm guessing that the three different locations for lone tipis don't mean three different tipis, but rather three different locations given by witnesses for the lone tipi. If he means three distinct tipis, then his research becomes somewhat suspect [and the witnesses become gaga].

I also suspect that the Varnum lookout mentioned is not that Varnum Lookout [capital L] proposed by Vern Smalley, but a spot on the "Benteen side" of Ash Creek, from whence Varnum saw Indians in the Little Horn valley and from where he saw the high ground on the "Custer side" which he later mentioned to Custer. I omit east and west etc. directional references, since they tend to be confusing. As Varnum might have said: "Look out!!"

Perhaps Keogh can elucidate?

Gordie,
what good is a song if the words just don't belong, and a dream must be a dream for two........

You are right about Varnum's Lookout, Gordie. He locates it on the Benteen side of Ash Creek on his topo map about 2 miles east of Ford A (I'm not sure where Vern Smalley locates his lookout). From there, he claims Varnum gave Custer his first indication that there was a large standing camp located in the LBH valley. Prior to that, Custer was under the impression that the hostiles were on the jump. He theorizes that Custer made the decision to swing to the north after getting Varnum's report of a large standing village in the valley. He got this report just after he sent Reno's battalion to chase after the fleeing "town" (as Girard reported) which was the group of Indians spotted by Girard earlier on his knoll.

As far as the locations of the lone tepee, he gave 3 different locations all from different witnesses, however he has theorized that they were all referring to a different lone tepee (from their perspectives). He places the burning tepee just over a mile or so from Ford A. This does tend to make some sense, as it explain why there was such a discrepancy between all those different accounts regarding its location. After all, this area had once been the location of a very large camp extending perhaps several miles in length.

[mwkeogh]

BTW Gordie, Doran agrees with you that Custer's route to MTC was not via Cedar Coulee nor the more Western Coulees off of Weir Point, but was the coulee just east (to the far side) of Sharpshooter Ridge, what some have called Godfrey's Gulch. He claims that Martin's big hill where Custer viewed the village (or part of it) was located on a big hill at the northern edge of Sharpshooter Ridge. From there, the columns changed formation into column of 4's and turned right to descend into the south fork of MTC. He claims the sighting of the Grey Horse troop occurred as they rode over Sharpshooter Ridge to descend to the coulee on the other side.

[harpskiddie]

keogh:

I still think there was only one Lone Tipi site [two tipis - one standing and one broken down]. Had there been more than one, somebody would have said "this is the second time we passed a tepee" or some such comment, but I've never seen one. And Varnum was very consistent in his accounts of there being one tipi standing and one broken down.

My impression has always been that people were describing the same location, just either measuring the distance from different places [the river, the morass, the divide, the Metroplolitan Hotel], or being mistaken in locating it.

Since I wasn't there on the day [well, maybe I was], I always tried to locate it in reference to where Girard could have made his observation of the "running like devils" Indians, and where Custer watered his horses and then swung to the right. That way the location fits not only descriptions [some of them, anyway] from witnesses, but also the actions taken and the order in which they were taken.

Aside from the change to a column of fours, that description of the route matches mine exactly, which obviously does not make it right. I think I posted on that somewhere or other a little while ago, maybe on the thread that Fred started about Weir and Sharpshooters [or maybe not].

I'll look forward to picking up the book as soon as my book guy can get it, and I can afford it - I'm slightly over budget for books for this month [and next, and next.....], and I have a prioritized list of what I need and want.

Gordie,
well, my Stringray's wiped, the slicks are startin' to spin, but the 413 is really diggin' in............

[mwkeogh]

Another very interesting and controversial theory proposed by author Doran is that the massive hostile camp was actually split into two large camps. The Hunkpapa, Minneconjous and Blackfoot, located alongside Shoulder Blade Creek well north of the current Custer Battlefield Museum and Post Office (in fact, much farther north than many others have located the southern end of the village) while the remainder of the hostiles (Oglalla, Sans Arc, Cheyenne & Brule) were encamped about mile and a 1/2 away, well north of Ford B (nearly opposite Deep Ravine) alongside Onion Creek). He has a large gap of about a mile and a half between these two large camps. Apparently this is what caused Custer to advance farther to the north when he reached MTC, rather than a pursuit of noncombatants.

[harpskiddie]

I've seen maps that indicate such a "split" although not on that scale, and that might be a reason why a "move to the north" of the camps to get away from the dead and the stench of battle is assumed [it would have been just as easy and maybe made more sense to move toward the south or the west].

Gordie,
my brother, the golf pro, gave me a job doing minor club repairs, but I never got a grip on it.....

[mwkeogh]

I just got thru another chapter tonight. It appears very clear to me that Doran is attempting to publish the book the Walter Camp meant to publish but never got a chance to. The author bases a great deal of weight on Camp's notes and Camp's theories, maps, locations, routes, and interviews. Author Doran and Camp also share an interesting background. Both were born in Camptown, PA (a town named after the Camp family). It seems that Doran is picking right up where Camp left off. This book comes the closest to expressing Camp's original ideas about how the battle was fought. Much of his new material is from Camp material which has never been published before. The author does use evidence presented at the RCOI, but he does so with great caution as he believes that much of the testimony taken was based on fabrications by the officers. He illustrates this in correspondence from Capt. Carter to Colonel Graham pointing out that Col. Wesley Merritt (head of the Reno Inquiry) said that the witnesses at the Inquiry untruthfully testified to uphold the honor of the 7th U.S. Cavalry.

On a personal note, the author claims to be a Benteen man, tho he does not seem to have much use for Reno's leadership in the valley. Like Clair mentioned in an earlier thread, he makes a strong case for Reno's failure in the valley being due to poor judgements due to his excessive drinking, which apparently was Camp's opinion as well. This view is based upon statements made to that effect by DeRudio, Porter, Girard, the two packers Churchill and Frett, Sipes, and Privates Peter Thompson, Henry Lange and Reno's own orderly Pvt. Edward Davern.