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Post by stevewilk on May 15, 2006 9:07:25 GMT -6
Billy, it was Ft. "McKinney", not McKinley. Named of course for Lt. John McKinney, killed in the Dull Knife fight.
Scout, you're correct about Arizona. Michno cites 310 engagements with over 4,000 casualties.
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Post by crzhrs on May 15, 2006 9:51:54 GMT -6
Cochise had been somewhat peaceful towards Whites until a Lt. Bascom took some of his relatives hostage (he tricked in to coming to the fort) because an Apache band supposedly kidnapped a white boy. Chochise attended the meeting and when he found out he was going to be arrested he escaped.
Cochise then captured some teamsters and offered to trade them for his Apaches . . . Bascom refused then hung them. Cochise then killed the teamsters. In another episode by US troopers, Mangas Colorado, Cochise uncle had been captured (by trickery?) and while being guarded he was hounded by troopers who burnt his feet with hot bayonets. Mangas then got up to chastise them but was shot down.
Cochise then started hostilities which resulted in many terrible things being done by both sides.
It was only a white employee of a stagecoach line (Tom Jeffords) that boldly went to Chochise and offered a peace treaty between the two and Chochise eventually went to the reservation and stopped fighting.
PS: as it turned out the white boy had not been captured after all by any member of Chochise's band.
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Post by Scout on May 15, 2006 12:04:11 GMT -6
Steve...McKinney was from my hometown of Memphis, Tn. After recently being engaged in heavy research I think the state of Masschusetts has more engagements than 310... Michno concentrates on the west. Massachusetts suffered attacks for almost 100 years. Now I know Arizona did to but theirs was not the mammoth attacks on towns like the Pequots and allies did...King Philip's War, the Franch and Indian War....Groton, Deerfield, Lancaster were attacked and burned on a daily basis for years....I don't know how people were able to live there and function. Other than Texas I don't know of another state that suffered as much in terms of human lives lost and property destroyed.
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Post by crzhrs on May 15, 2006 12:16:35 GMT -6
As a NE'er I am familiar with some of the warfare that took place in my area. It was far more brutal and violent than anything that took place in the West . . . and it was a give-no-quarter mindset on both sides.
There were far more large-scale attacks, battles and Indian raids on settlements which took their toll. Settlements/towns were burned and many whites were captured and taken north to be traded.
Both sides fought with a brutalness that makes some of what took place in the Northern and Southern Plains suffer in comparison.
Indian villages were not immune to white attack in which whole bands were killed or burned alive.
However, in the end diseases were far more dangerous to Indians . . . with whole tribes descimated. Who ever was left eventually went north to Canada only to join the French in the French & Indian Wars against the British.
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Post by Lawtonka on May 15, 2006 20:22:47 GMT -6
The book speaks of Apaches firing down into the fort from the high hills. Buliding the fort beneath high hills was one bad military decision... Scout, youv've got that right. I have been reviewing my copy and could not help but chuckle at something McChristian said along the same note. He said, "It would have been difficult to imagine a more unlikely place for a military post, even on the frontier." This is on page 65 in the last paragraph. In the photograph I posted earlier overlooking the fort site, was taken from the position on the hill where the Apaches were firing into the fort. They were dispursed after a few rounds of artillery. I think they had some of the shell fragments in the museum from where I took the photo. They used a mountain howitzer. That seemed to be a favorite piece of artillery for the frontier Army. Man, the garrison was just lucky the Indians did not have artillery!
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Post by Lawtonka on May 15, 2006 20:44:17 GMT -6
Scout, you asked in an earlier post about whether there were any forts left in pristine condition. I can tell you Fort Sill has done an excellent job of preserving the Old Post Quandrangle. Here are a couple of the buildings for sample. The permanent building are all buit of stone. Out at Eagle Park in Cache, Mr. Woesner has one of the original verticle log cabins built on Fort Sill, prior to the permanent structure. Two other forts that come to mind are Fort Huachuca, Az and Fort Riley, KS. All of these old forts are active post. I have been to Riley and but did not spend a great deal of time there, But Huachuca , I remember is well preserved and has a pretty nice museum also. The Guardhouse The Post Chapel, still in use today! Built in 1875
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Post by markland on May 16, 2006 4:51:10 GMT -6
Billy, it was Ft. "McKinney", not McKinley. Named of course for Lt. John McKinney, killed in the Dull Knife fight. Scout, you're correct about Arizona. Michno cites 310 engagements with over 4,000 casualties. Steve, many thanks for the correction. That's what I get for being lazy and not wanting to risk life and limb to pull those sheets out from the bottom of the stack where they currently reside. Best of wishes, Billy
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Post by markland on May 16, 2006 4:56:46 GMT -6
Another frontier-era fort which is in pristine condition is Ft. Larned, Kansas. It is now operated by the National Park Service and, boy oh boy, do they have a good bookstore! Here is the link to their website: www.nps.gov/fols/home.htmlBest of wishes, Billy
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Post by markland on May 16, 2006 5:07:04 GMT -6
I have read that Ft. Defiance, Arizona also had a cliff overlooking it. Ft. Defiance was a pre-Civil War fort built to control the Navajo. I can't find a map of the fort's layout but will keep looking.
Billy
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Post by Lawtonka on May 16, 2006 17:34:49 GMT -6
Markland, Here is a photo of Fort Defiance, AZ. My source Old Forts of the Southwest, by Hart, says it was established in 1853, abandoned in 1861, then became an Indian Agency. The large three story structue remained in place until 1960. At the time it was torn down, it was in solid condition. Interesting, there is one grave left in the post cemetery. It is that of Sylvester Johnson, killed in raid by Navajos in April, 1860, when several thousand of them assaulted the fort. Says the photo was taken from the site of the blockhouse that was erected in 1858 on the east side. The photo is of a lateer period of the fort, although not dated, it is most likely after the 1860s. I thought it was interesting that this was where the Camel experiment took place in 1857. Just think, If it had of been a success, the 7th may have arrived at LBH on Camels ! They sure did put it in a bowl !!
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Post by markland on May 17, 2006 13:03:38 GMT -6
Tim, many thanks for the photo! Looking at it, I would guesstimate that Ft. Defiance may have been in a worse position than Ft. Bowie.
Be good,
Billy
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Post by bubbabod on May 17, 2006 18:53:33 GMT -6
Lawtonka, regarding the camel experiment, we were taking a day trip from Kerrville, Tx. to Bandera, Tx. last year and stumbled along a dot on the road, Highway 173, called Camp Verde. It is on a beautiful little river with overhanging trees and an old original two story building that serves as an antique store, cafe, post office for the "town." It tells the history of an army experiment using camels and that Camp Verde was where it took place. It's possible they tried it in a couple different locations. I'll see what I can find. I wonder what they did with those camels when they discovered the futility of their experiment???
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Post by bubbabod on May 17, 2006 18:56:50 GMT -6
Lawtonka, I hope this link comes through. It's a good story of the history of Camp Verde and has pictures of the general store and creek I was talking about. The story talks about them inheriting the camels, so maybe they inherited them from Ft. Defiance?? Doesn't make it very clear. www.texasescapes.com/TexasHillCountryTowns/CampVerdeTexas/CampVerdeTx.htmBe sure and click on the story of the hanging tree. Fascinating stuff there I hadn't known of.
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Post by stevewilk on May 17, 2006 22:42:30 GMT -6
Actually, the camels performed quite well, particularly in one surveying expedition in west Texas. Thirty three camels were shipped from Egypt, arriving at Indianola TX, (with a 34th camel!) before being moved to their home base at Camp Verde.
The camels were not popular with the soldiers, nor with other animals such as mules. Apparently the humped beasts gave off quite a stench; causing troopers to complain. Gen David Twiggs, commanding in Texas before the Civil War, hated the camels.
During the war the experiment ended and the Camel Corps was disbanded. Some of the animals were sold to circuses or to private individuals. Others were turned loose in the desert where unfortunately some were simply shot by miners. (wonder what the Apaches' reaction was to these beasts?) Legend says there are still offspring of these camels wandering the southwestern deserts.
If you've been to Phoenix you've likely heard of Camelback Mtn and Camelback Road. I'm guessing the name derives from the army's camel corps of the 1850s.
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Post by Scout on May 18, 2006 5:22:49 GMT -6
Bubbabod....I travel to Texas every year and travel the backroads and have found some incredible sites...the hill country is spectacular...I know what you mean...there are some beautiful sites along the Guadalupe River. They also have the most incredible selection of art and historic museums in the most remote places. The Old Courthouse Museum in Bandera is excellent. Tim...you're postings are great....here is a fantastic website for Texas and old forts: forttours.com Best wishes, Mike
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