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Post by markland on May 12, 2006 7:24:56 GMT -6
Photos taken at Ft. Craig, NM. This was taken on the access road to Ft. Craig. On the northern (left) backside of the mesa in front of you was fought the battle of Val Verde during the Civil War. The Rio Grande river is in the mid-distance between the mesa and me. Ruins of the Guard House/Sally Port of Ft. Craig. You can see the mesa behind it in the distance. This is the ruins of the Commanding Officer's quarters. Remnants of one of the Commissary Storehouses.
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Post by Lawtonka on May 12, 2006 10:02:44 GMT -6
Thanks Markland,
I have never visited New Mexico. Would like to someday. Do you have any photos of Fort Wingate?
Nice Pics!
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Post by Diane Merkel on May 12, 2006 11:18:08 GMT -6
My stars, Billy, another talent!
Your photos almost seem to be in 3-D on my screen (or have I had too much coffee today?).
Beautiful. Simply beautiful.
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Post by markland on May 12, 2006 14:17:47 GMT -6
Thanks Markland, I have never visited New Mexico. Would like to someday. Do you have any photos of Fort Wingate? Nice Pics! Tim, no, Ft. Craig and Ft. Bayard are the only two I had a chance to visit. I should have run over to Arizona on the first full day but I wanted to go up into the Gila National Forest. I had hopes of getting up the cliff dwellings about two hours north in the forest but got sick and tired of yahoos trying to emulate Mario Andretti whilst I was trying to enjoy the scenery at the blessed speed limit of 25 so ended up following some dirt road for about fifteen miles through the mountains. Saw scenery on that detour! Thank goodness I was driving a Forrester which was both small enough to get around the larger rocks and high enough to get over the ones I couldn't get around. I never got to the bottom of the canyon I was heading to because about a mile from it, the road went down in so steep a manner that I felt I would have needed to tie a belaying line to the car to get it down that path-the "road" had degenerated into something just wide enough to be called a path. But, I can see why Cochise and the other Apaches were able to lead the troops around by the nose. That terrain is really rough! But I can also see why they wanted to stay there. Here is a shot from the road through the Black Range to Silver City (NM 152) from I-25.
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Post by Lawtonka on May 12, 2006 16:07:30 GMT -6
Hey that is a great shot, thanks! Now I know I have got to go to New Mexico! I want to visit some of the fort sites and one particular thing for sure will be Lincoln County.
You said you visited Ft. Bayard, do you have some pics of that you could post?
It is funny, how you can think you have gone to the middle of nowhere to enjoy the creation, and all of a sudden people show up with another agenda.....Hope you get a chance to go back and see some more. Like you said, sometimes you just have to get off the old beat up path to enjoy the solitude!
Last time at the Rosebud, I took the rental car as far as I could on some roads leading away from there, but finally had to turn around, it finally got to the point I would have need a Humvee. hee hhee.
Later Bud
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Post by markland on May 12, 2006 16:41:51 GMT -6
"Hey that is a great shot, thanks! Now I know I have got to go to New Mexico! I want to visit some of the fort sites and one particular thing for sure will be Lincoln County." Here is what you will see. Remind you of anyplace? That was taken about 65-70 miles west of Ft. Sumner, NM in the county immediately east of Lincoln, Torrence county. If you look at the atlas, I was going eastward on US 60 from I-25...I kept getting the hankering to go across that damned prairie and fought it for 60 or so miles before saying "Oh fud, go for it!" Followed 60 to its intersection with US 54 and followed 54 northeasterly through NM, TX, OK and into KS, then US 283 to Dodge and then picked up US 56 north of Dodge City and followed it northwards up to I-70. Only a seventeen to nineteen hour drive, with plenty of time for pit and curiousity stops. Re: Ft. Bayard. For some reason I didn't take any photos...ahhhh, I had to check-in (actually find the motel), shower and find some place in town that served adult beverages, food and had ESPN-it was the night of the second Carolina-Duke game, so first things first! Have a great weekend! Billy
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Post by Scout on May 12, 2006 19:47:13 GMT -6
Lawtonka [Tim] ...got the Fort Bowie book, just started it, really good....Fort Bowie was in excellent shape until 1964 when land was sold to private interest and they tore the hell out of it....1964 was recent history. Just imagine....fort in great shape till then. People are such dumb asses. How depressing. Tim...is cemetery still marked? Or has public destroyed that to?
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Post by Lawtonka on May 12, 2006 21:06:48 GMT -6
I remember the NPS person on duty telling me that local ranchers had salvaged the lumber from the buildings. You know, I do not remember seeing the cemetery. Normally that is one of the important features I like to visit on these kind of sites. That is a good question. Right now I am drawing a blank, I just do not remember. Maybe someone can help us out with that one. Here are a couple more shots closer in. I am sure by now you have seen the great photogrpahs in the book. Also, i found great respect for Cochise. It is sad how he was willing to allow whites to use Apache Pass and Springs only to be blamed for something he did not do. A lot different man than what the movies portrayed! He was a man of his word.
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Post by markland on May 13, 2006 5:58:22 GMT -6
Lawtonka [Tim] ...got the Fort Bowie book... Tim...is cemetery still marked? Or has public destroyed that to? Mike, in answer to your question, the bodies within the cemetery were removed and reinterred at San Francisco National Cemetery. According to one source, civilians and soldiers were removed. However, I have my doubts about that as I haven't been able to find a listing for two of the civilians recorded as being buried in the Ft. Bowie cemetery. Here are the links. The first one is the Burial Registers compiled by the Army while in the process of relocating graves from abandoned posts. The second is another listing of interments at Ft. Bowie. The third is the National Gravesite Locator hosted by the Veteran's Administration. Select "Advanced" search if you ever need to use it since there are more options to narrow down a search. www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/special/military/toc.htmlftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/az/cochise/cemeteries/ftbowie.txtgravelocator.cem.va.gov/j2ee/servlet/NGL_v1Best of wishes, Billy
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Post by Scout on May 13, 2006 6:21:57 GMT -6
Tim...yea they 'salvaged' it alright. So sad the park service didn't get their hands on it sooner. I think if I had something like that on my property I would have taken care of it. To bad it can't be reconstructed. Quite a few officers were killed in and around the fort. Looking at the pictures I question the logic of building a fort that has a huge hill overlooking it. Seems like an odd choice even though it was there to guard the pass. I can't agree with you on Cochise however, I see nothing noble in him at all. Burning people to death...sorry, I gotta draw the line on that one.
Billy...Yea, I question the 'we moved the cemetery story' as well. Thanks for the websites.
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Post by markland on May 13, 2006 8:42:09 GMT -6
Billy...Yea, I question the 'we moved the cemetery story' as well. Thanks for the websites. Mike, for an example of why I doubt that they were removed to San Francisco, see under the second link I supplied (Interment Registers), Montana Territory, Ft. Benton, p. 30. Having said that, I do feel compelled to point out that at least three civilians killed by Indians at Ft. Phil Kearny were disinterred and reinterred at Ft. McKinley McKinney, WY Depot. They were the traders who were the first casualties of Carrington's movement to the location of Ft. Phil Kearny. I didn't spot any others, specifically Glover, however there were several unmarked graves on the register I saw (which is not on-line). Best of wishes, Billy
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Post by Lawtonka on May 14, 2006 19:55:06 GMT -6
Scout,
I admit, I have not studied much of anything particular on Cochise. Most of what I ever new of him was what Hollywood has produced.
I was going on just the little I read about him in the Fort Bowie Book. It just looked like his willingness to guard the pass and protect it was an honorable thing. I may have misunderstood something, but I thought he had agreed to allow and protect all of those using the pass including the whites, that is until the situation arose concerning the little boy. However, sounds like he must have had a pretty dark side. There is certainly nothing noble about burning people. I definately need to do a more reading on him. I sure don't need any heros like that. Can you reccommend a good book to read on Cochise?
Yeah, I agree, I think salvaged was a nice word for stipped clean. If it weren't for a little bit of adobe, nothing woutl be left. I guess they were thinking no one would ever have a reason to come there again. Then again, at least they have not built a shopping center or a motel on it like they have on our battlefield here on the East Coast.
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Billy, Thanks for the links, those are great to know of. I was unaware they were out there online. Very interesting.
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Post by Scout on May 15, 2006 6:39:16 GMT -6
Judging from what I see Ft. Bowie was certaintly in a bad location. The book speaks of Apaches firing down into the fort from the high hills. Buliding the fort beneath high hills was one bad military decision...it may be the worst located fort on the frontier. I had read someplace that Arizona had more Indian Wars battle than any other state. I don't know think that's true but, but there were certaintly a lot of engagements around the Apache Pass and the Ft. Bowie area. Tim...No, I can't recommed a book on Cochise. I am writing a book on the Indian wars in America and have poured through volumes of books at the library but McChristian's book is one of the finest I have read lately. He does give the hard facts about the man and then makes slight apologies for doing so...the pc thing to do these days. Anyway, I don't want to bring a firestorm down on us, so we'll leave it at that.
How mant old forts survive in pristine condition? Ft. Davis and Ft. Abe Lincoln come to mind, but most have been carried off by locals through the years..for the wood.
Billy...I thought all personnel killed at Ft. Phil Kearney were reinterred at the Custer Battlefield in the late 1800's didn't know anyone was buried at Ft. McKinley. That's interesting...why would these three be buried somewhere else. Were these moved years before the others were moved to the Custer Battlefield?
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Post by markland on May 15, 2006 7:33:17 GMT -6
A two-fer! If anyone wants it (and I am sure that many do), the chronological list of engagements between Indians and the Army can be found at this link (along with a plethora of other interesing things). The link is to the on-line documents at the U. S. Army's War College, Military History section in Carlisle, PA. www.carlisle.army.mil/usamhi/DL/AtoZ.htmUse the Find or Search function of your browser and search for the term, Indian. It is an Adobe PDF file so you should be able to right-click it and "Save As" to a location on your PC for off-line viewing. Also at that location is the Index to Journal of the Military Service Institution of the US, 1880-1904. Same principle to save it to your local disk applies. Also while there, get Heitman and Dyer's Compendium. As far as a good book on Cochise, a book by Edwin R. Sweeney, Cochise, Chiricahua Apache Chief, is recognized as the most authoritive. I am reading it now-well, sort of, having just finished Unrau's Tending the Talking Wire-and it is well-written and researched. From another book which made extensive use of it, I learned that Sweeney was the first modern author to make extensive use of Mexican national and state archival records in trying to piece together Cochise's history prior to the Bascom Affair. Best of wishes, Billy
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Post by markland on May 15, 2006 7:40:20 GMT -6
Scout, darned, almost forgot to answer the Ft. Phil Kearny question. The simple fact is that I don't know. I will write Sonny at FPK and mine his knowledge on what happened. I suspect that when the troops were disinterred for removal to Custer National Cemetery, the civilians were disinterred as well and moved a few mile to Ft. McKinley. But that is just a working hypothesis, no actual proof beyond the indubitable fact that three of the known civilian dead from FPK were residing at that post when the military dead were disinterred. Ft. McKinley McKinney was later converted into a Wyoming state soldier's home. I cannot remember whether I found the graves-I think I did-on their list of interments.
Best of wishes,
Billy
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