"Killing Custer," by James Welch

[Treasuredude]

crzhrs said:

Leyton:

Ok . . . thanks. I knew Windolph was from Northern Europe. I guess the Swiss and Germans are somewhat alike, except the Swiss don't start wars! (that's a joke, folks)

I think when Welch did the interview with Windolph's daughter they found her somewhere in South Dakota . . . I believe there is a large German population there, with many of them the descendants of German immigrants . . . maybe from the time of Charles Windolph.

For some any book that defends Indians has to be inaccurate.

crzhrs--

I don't have any quotes by Windolph. I was commenting on his daughter's remarks in the documentary and the book. If Windolph did say those disparaging remarks about Custer, I can understand why. He would have felt a much closer affilliation with his Captain than with Custer.

He received the MOH for his actions at LBH as a water carrier. He was actually one of those who supplied the covering fire for the water carriers.

He (Windolph) did return to South Dakota and worked at the Homestake Mine near Lead. He died in 1950 at age 98 and is buried in the Black Hills National Cemetery outside of Sturgis.

[crzhrs]

There is a bio on Windolph . . . has anybody read it? It may shed more light on his feelings toward his fellow soldiers/officers.

If he told his daughter: "Custer was for Custer" it must have stuck in her mind. Because so many years later when she gave the interview (early-mid 90s) she said it almost sadly.

[crzhrs]

Leyton:

I couldn't find the reference about betrayal . . . but I did find a couple of instances in which Welch twice stated Benteen disobeyed Custer's orders. You would think the "Swiss Miss(ed)" would have jumped all over that . . . or do you think he didn't even read it because it gives the Indians' side of the story and any book that does that has to be all lies?

[custerstillstands]

I actually did read it, crzhrs, because in our beautiful liberal Europe only James Welch is teaching us the Native American story (sounds hilarious, I know, but it's true)

What I read was plenty of lies (Welch stated that Custer was doing massacres in 1867, that Black Kettle was an angel, that Custer has never known how to make any scouting before attacking etc. etc.)

It was a piece of heavy disinformation and, like Historian Michno said, it was only a pro-NA and Frontier army-bashing piece.

Nothing interesting. I love the part "nobody can contradict Fox's theory" - actually everybody is, despite Mr Welch's disinformation

[crzhrs]

CSS:

Like all authors with an agenda they have points to prove . . . some we can believe others we cannot.

You are entitled to your opinion . . . I thought there were parts in it that were very good and accurate.

I like the part about the graves site of the pioneer and his son next to a highway in Montana that motorists speed by without even realizing it's there, very touching.

And that's like an analogy of history . . . most people don't realize what took place in the past and get their info from authors/historians that have agendas.

The best thing to do is read a wide variety of books and come up with your own conclusions. You have, so have I, Leyton, Markland, PJ: Fred, Diane, Shatsonka, Jim, and many others.

We may not always be on the same page . . . but at least we are trying to learn.

[Tricia]

Crzhrs--

I liked that part about the gravesite near I-90 as well. I need to go and see it someday. Like you, there were some places in Welch's narrative that I didn't agree with--particularly his reference to the village at LBH as being "peaceful," but overall, it was well-written and worth exploring for a newbie who has, say, been impressed with Dee Brown or similar. But those people who I do recommend this title to also get my warning, "IT IS VERY PRO-NATIVE AMERICAN ..."

And you're right. The truths of LBH will vary from person to person and it doesn't help board matters when an agenda is first shoved down one's throat and the person who reacts negatively to it then comes under a torrent of insults. I tend to learn more here under calmer conditions ... and we should all be given the consideration and band space to reach our own conclusions!

Regards,
Leyton McLean

[custerstillstands]

crzhrs said:

CSS:

Like all authors with an agenda they have points to prove . . . some we can believe others we cannot.

You are entitled to your opinion . . . I thought there were parts in it that were very good and accurate.

I like the part about the graves site of the pioneer and his son next to a highway in Montana that motorists speed by without even realizing it's there, very touching.

And that's like an analogy of history . . . most people don't realize what took place in the past and get their info from authors/historians that have agendas.

The best thing to do is read a wide variety of books and come up with your own conclusions. You have, so have I, Leyton, Markland, PJ: Fred, Diane, Shatsonka, Jim, and many others.

We may not always be on the same page . . . but at least we are trying to learn.

I liked James Welch's story about his own experience on the battlefield and the research he made about his Pikunis ancestors.

However, he was unfair with Custer and Little Bighorn and it's not normal

[Tricia]

No, he simply has a different interpretation than you do, CSS. Whilst I may not agree with it completely, Welch was entitled to have one ... as does any person who contributes to this board.

[custerstillstands]

ricemclean said:

No, he simply has a different interpretation than you do, CSS. Whilst I may not agree with it completely, Welch was entitled to have one ... as does any person who contributes to this board.

Different interpretation ? Have you read the comment about Custer's 1867 massacres in the plains ?

Can you show me the 1867 massacres ?

[Tricia]

Yeah, I did. Though Welch and I carry some different opinions regarding the veracity of the term "massacre"--in regards to the Washita--I didn't throw the book aside, spitting and hisssing. It was his interpretation, that's all. Welch got further with me on the Baker Massacre.

But I'm not going to argue with you about who, in your mind, was more righteous. There's no point in discussing this ....

[custerstillstands]

Interpretation of the word "massacre" - hilarious

And what about Welch's lies about Custer in 1867 ? Custer's words to his subordinates in 1876 ?