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Post by bigpond on May 17, 2005 5:40:17 GMT -6
With many members at different levels of trying to understand what happened that day,could we possibly start by asking questions like,
Why did GAC not send his scouts[instead of Benteen] to the left oblique ?
Knowing that the village was large,he would have needed every man[as it turned out]to accomplish his mission.
We all know that if it hadn't been for the Crow and Shoshone at the Rosebud,Crook could have suffered a pretty hefty defeat,or at least,lost a lot more dead.
To me this would make more sense,rather than splitting his command not knowing what lay ahead.
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Post by weir on May 17, 2005 7:08:54 GMT -6
With many members at different levels of trying to understand what happened that day,could we possibly start by asking questions like, Why did GAC not send his scouts[instead of Benteen] to the left oblique ? Knowing that the village was large,he would have needed every man[as it turned out]to accomplish his mission. We all know that if it hadn't been for the Crow and Shoshone at the Rosebud,Crook could have suffered a pretty hefty defeat,or at least,lost a lot more dead. To me this would make more sense,rather than splitting his command not knowing what lay ahead. Custer needed time. If Benteen would have discovered an indian village on the left, he could have been able to strike it. Remember, June 25th battle was engaged in a hurry. The time was not, Custer thought, on his side. At Tullock's Creek, scout were sent, but on June 25th Custer needed to be fast. His brillant career during the Civil War was the result of his great ability in being "fast and clear in his judgement" (according to Cpt Sanford during the CW) He won many battle, including Washita, with that. The only difference is that the Washita scheme had to be built quickly in LBH. |
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Post by elisabeth on May 17, 2005 11:15:13 GMT -6
It's a good question, Bigpond.
Xav's explanation is the only one that makes any real sense; if they did run into anything, whether another village or Indians escaping, they'd need enough force to deal with whatever they found.
However, it's still puzzling. Scouts could have moved faster and less visibly -- Benteen's column must have been putting up plenty of dust. Scouts could at least have gone ahead of the column and evaluated the lie of the land, to reach Benteen's 'no sane Indian' verdict some miles before he did. Is it just possible that Custer no longer felt he could rely on them? They'd made it clear by then that they had no faith in the enterprise ...
Also, as far as we know (and we know that we don't know everything, thanks to the closing of ranks after the event!) Custer's orders to Benteen seem to have been almost as ambiguous as Terry's to Custer. He's to scout to the left and pitch into anything he finds; he's urged on from one valley to the next by that succession of (almost panicky?) afterthought messages from Custer; yet Custer later seems to be relying on Benteen as his reserve, without having foreseen the possibility that Benteen might indeed have been engaged in 'pitching in' somewhere among those valleys, and no more able to help than Reno. Benteen's orders (he says) are simply to rejoin the main body when he's finished his scout -- but that might have been never.
In the Civil War, Custer was known for being able to read a battlefield in a split second. But that was on very different terrain. At LBH he was making the same split-second decisions, but without a clue as to what he'd be up against: ravines and gullies you couldn't see from a distance, bluffs concealing the main village, all that. If he'd reconnoitred better, used his scouts better -- who knows? Maybe he'd have been able to get into position before sending Reno in ... or maybe he'd have lost the element of surprise, and it'd have been a disaster anyway. Seems to me, and again Xav's hit it, that he had to make things up very fast on the spur of the moment; he had one winning formula, the Washita one, and grabbed for that; but this time the terrain and the numbers were against him.
Of course, Benteen was convinced he was shunted up into the badlands to keep him out of the glory. There may have been an element of that too ...?
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Post by bigpond on May 17, 2005 12:02:32 GMT -6
Xav,
your first paragraph,and next line are a contridiction in itself.
Needed time,hurry,fast.
At the point GAC made up his mind,he could have sent the scouts which included people who knew the area well[Crow]along with the Ree.
This would have kept the command intact,and at the same time,he could have had that area scouted far faster.
If the scouts ran into a lot of trouble,then GAC could send in a reserve unit.
We all know now,Benteen gave it up as a waste of time,and I am not really sure if GAC really expected anything to be found.I know the pony herd was in his mind as well,but if the village was moving as he thought it was,then they would be taken care of in the charge,as events arose.
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Post by bigpond on May 17, 2005 12:11:08 GMT -6
Sorry Elisabeth, hadn't seen your post,I was dolly day dreaming  as I was writing the above reply. Nice to have someone from oor little Isle on hear,a big welcome to you ;D On yonder hill there stood a coo, it started to rain,and its no there noo.  |
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Post by markland on May 17, 2005 15:03:18 GMT -6
Actually, I don't think many, if any, of the scouts were at hand when the Benteen column split off to the left. Varnum in his account in Camp's interview states, and I am going by memory here, that he had been up in the hills all morning and that they came down and joined the regiment at the point where Custer and Reno split off.
Best of wishes,
Billy
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Post by crzhrs on May 17, 2005 16:04:24 GMT -6
I doubt the Crow Scouts would have been very effective in doing what Benteen was ordered to do. Custer said he wanted "an intelligent White Man" to go the Crow's Nest with the Crows . . . whatever trust he had in the Crows seemed to be nil . . . plus once the Crows realized that Custer was in deep doo-doo, they split and headed for their reservation.
Custer had been told by the Crows where the village may be . . . in the valley . . . not off in some unforsaken rough country where Benteen ended up. Benteen was to capture any fleeing Indians . . . not attack the village.
Custer was right in sending Benteen off to the left with his command, but should have told Benteen not to go so far as to be useless if needed . . . which in the end happened.
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Post by bigpond on May 17, 2005 17:36:11 GMT -6
Crzhrs,
thats exactly why he should have sent the scouts to the unbroken country,and if they came accross some fleeing from the village,that would have been right up there street.
As you say,they were not going to attack the village,but have a quick scout,GAC wasn't going to use them on the battlefield anyway,and Benteen & his troops would still be with the command where they were needed.
And as for being effective,they probarbly had forgot more than Benteen knew.
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Post by Geiger on May 17, 2005 20:54:25 GMT -6
bigpond, I'm glad you posted this. I've always believed Custer brought about his own demise by dividing his command 3 times in the face of what his scouts swore was the biggest concentration of hostile Indians they had ever seen. Dont blame Reno or Benteen. They may not have been exemplary soldiers but they did all they could do with what they had at hand. Benteen should not have been sent off "valley hunting" to the left as he was. You have to wonder what GAC was thinking. He could have sent a detail to the left for a look instead of a 3 company battalion.
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Post by elisabeth on May 20, 2005 5:56:20 GMT -6
Ta for the welcome, Bigpond (and the verse!).
Slightly off thread, but while we're talking about scouts -- does anyone have an explanation for GAC sending Bloody Knife with Reno? He was hardly going to be much of a morale-booster, given his mood at the time; and with the village in plain sight, there was no need for his skills. What was that about?
In Geiger's words, 'You have to wonder what GAC was thinking' ...
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Post by alfuso on May 20, 2005 6:31:32 GMT -6
Probably because Bloody Knife and is nepew wanted some "Sioux ponies." They even got a few before BK was shot. Ta for the welcome, Bigpond (and the verse!). Slightly off thread, but while we're talking about scouts -- does anyone have an explanation for GAC sending Bloody Knife with Reno? He was hardly going to be much of a morale-booster, given his mood at the time; and with the village in plain sight, there was no need for his skills. What was that about? In Geiger's words, 'You have to wonder what GAC was thinking' ... |
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Post by weir on May 20, 2005 8:29:56 GMT -6
Xav, your first paragraph,and next line are a contridiction in itself. Needed time,hurry,fast. He needed time, he needed to gain time, hurry, fast. No contridiction. At the point GAC made up his mind,he could have sent the scouts which included people who knew the area well[Crow]along with the Ree. This would have kept the command intact,and at the same time,he could have had that area scouted far faster. If the scouts ran into a lot of trouble,then GAC could send in a reserve unit. We all know now,Benteen gave it up as a waste of time,and I am not really sure if GAC really expected anything to be found.I know the pony herd was in his mind as well,but if the village was moving as he thought it was,then they would be taken care of in the charge,as events arose. Check the Indians wars military operations. Even Sherman, bitter critic of Custer, admitted Custer had no choice than do divide his command. Custer needed to capture the indians civilians before they fled to the north, and that was a major goal of the battle. Actually, capturing the civilians had an effect on warriors's bravery. Miles, Godfrey, Sherman, MacClernand... admitted the division of the command was perfectly logical. Gray, Fox, Michno, Bates, Walt Camp admitted it was logical. I let you guess who was the sole to have doubts at the time... |
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Post by crzhrs on May 24, 2005 14:49:55 GMT -6
Elisabeth:
<does anyone have an explanation for GAC sending Bloody Knife with Reno?>
Custer, in addition to Bloody Knife, and the Arikara, sent all non-Indian scouts with Reno, also Billy Jackson (half-blood). That has always bothered me. Why would Custer send so many scouts with Reno, none with Benteen, and he only a few Crow scouts and Mitch Boyer.
Did Custer had little faith in Reno's ability? did he feel Benteen would not come across anything, in effect punishing by sending him on a "wild goose chase"?
Very little was known about the territory, except by the scouts. Sending Benteen off with no guides in an unknown area is controversial. Reno knew where he was going, so why so many scouts?
Any opinions anyone?
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Post by shatonska on May 24, 2005 15:06:59 GMT -6
Elisabeth: <does anyone have an explanation for GAC sending Bloody Knife with Reno?> Custer, in addition to Bloody Knife, and the Arikara, sent all non-Indian scouts with Reno, also Billy Jackson (half-blood). That has always bothered me. Why would Custer send so many scouts with Reno, none with Benteen, and he only a few Crow scouts and Mitch Boyer. Did Custer had little faith in Reno's ability? did he feel Benteen would not come across anything, in effect punishing by sending him on a "wild goose chase"? Very little was known about the territory, except by the scouts. Sending Benteen off with no guides in an unknown area is controversial. Reno knew where he was going, so why so many scouts? Any opinions anyone? it's logical , reno had to attack first so the scouts had to be with him to steal horses , the crow who knew better than sioux that place went with custer , benteen had to come back to custer in a hurry , but he didn't |
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Post by crzhrs on May 24, 2005 16:01:24 GMT -6
Shat:
<it's logical , reno had to attack first so the scouts had to be with him to steal horses , the crow who knew better than sioux that place went with custer , benteen had to come back to custer in a hurry , but he didn't>
That doesn't explain why Girard, Reynolds, Herendeen, and Dorman . . . all non-Indian . . . and Billy Jackson (mix-blood) were with Reno. Dorman was an interpreter . . . Did Custer expect Reno to capture Indians? Girard had a run-in with Sitting Bull with Sitting Bull threatening to kill him. Herendeen had been on several expeditions with other hunters/trappers/gold seekers in the Black Hills during 1874-75 and had fights with the Sioux. I don't know Reynold's ties with the Indians, but he was a well-respected guide. Jackson had spent time with the Sioux.
Benteen had been ordered to scout the ridges to the left and keep going if he found nothing. Seems to me that Crow Scouts would be vital to him. As it was, he decided to turn back after deciding he was on a "wild goose chase." That turn back enabled him to at least save Reno's command.
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as I was writing the above reply.
