Is the official version not biased?

[Diane Merkel]

I received the following e-mail from a website visitor. I would appreciate it if some of you kind souls would tackle some or all of Xavier's questions. Thanks! Diane

Dear Little Bighorn Associates,

I'm interesting in the Little Bighorn and maybe you know my brother, webmaster of the website www.custer.tk, who is writing a french book about LBH, who is about to be published at the end of the year.

I wonder id the official theory of Little Big Horn is not wrong. There is many illogical facts that I cannot explain without accpeting the Robert Nightengale theory of Custer attacking the village.

Here is my questions, I hope you could answer to them :

1. How do you explain the indian testimonies of Red Horse, Sitting Bull, Kill Eagle and a squaw, Martini, Davern, Godfrey, Edgerly, Goldin, Varnum, scout Goes Ahead... and many others, even Benteen and Reno, were sure that Custer charged the village ?
Martini said to Benteen that "Custer is charging the village". Sitting Bull indicates the village as "the position of the fight". Red Horse said "the soldiers stopped on the edge of the village". Scout Goes Ahead said : "gray troops (Custer's F company) crossed the river".

2. How do you explain the dead body of Sergent Bustard of Company I found in the village site ?

3. How do you explain the army cartridges found on the village site ?

4. How do you explain the 7th cavalry dead horses found on the village site ?

5. How do you explain the death of the Gall's family (5 people), killed in her lodges of Hukpapas circle ? Bloody Knife is an impossible theory, nor the Reno's fight

6. How do you explain the lodges burned found by Terry, as Red Horse testified of soldiers burning some of them, like Kill Eagle and even Godfrey thought so from Reno Hill.

7. How do you explain the lost patrol on Weir Point ?

8. How do you explain that 1'000 warriors can leave Reno's command completly in a while of minutes ? The Indians have no chief able to command to attack a threat (Custer in the coulee as the official theory said) not seen, while Reno was retreating.

9. How do you explain why Crazy Horse did his angle-march ? He had a great strategy mind, I could admit that, but to command more than 200 warriors to leave the front battlefield for a circling march, with what we know about the Indians lack of discipline. The official theory is not very convicting.

10. How do you explain how Custer can just ride down the Custer ridge and find directly a ford (North Ford), without exploring the river ? Custer's luck ?

11. How do the historians explain why Custer send his right wing passing Luce Ridge, for which reason ?

12. And finally, a question for the Custer's buffs you are. It is not a scientific question, but more a question about the spirit, a question for the Custer's buffs you are. Do you think seriously that Custer waited so long that Reno was routed, that Custer was waiting, and after that riding in the hills, sending scouting operations on the left, well... touristic riding on the right, all along, that THE Custer, the Michigander command, the BoyGeneral, the Wanutsa mastermind (the Wanutsa strategy is an help to understand LBH),the "best cavalry man of the Union army" if we quote Sheridan, this Custer was... waiting for Benteen ? Even after sending the 24 men patrol on Weir Point ? That's really not convicting.

The official theory appears for me very lacunar. But maybe you have facts I haven't and you can reasonably explain me all this facts which indicates that Custer charge the village ?

Best regards,

Xavier Cornut

[shatonska]

the book "lakota noon" by micno and graham books clarifies many of these questions !
gall family was killed by reno's arikaras scouts in the wood by the river !

[weir]

Guest-shatonska said:

the book "lakota noon" by micno and graham books clarifies many of these questions !
gall family was killed by reno's arikaras scouts in the wood by the river !

Well, Nightengale said so. Could be Arikaras, but I wonder why they kill the Gall family in her lodge...? They were stealing ponies, and the ponies weren't in the village ! And Bloody Knife was not here, he stayed with Reno.


Arikaras were on the left of Reno's line. The woods are on the right. The Arikaras left Reno early in the combat, abandonned the left flank and Reno had to retreat to the woods. The Arikaras, except Bloody Knife, weren't fighting in the woods. How could they have kill the Gall's family in the woods (what were they doing there while the camp was attacked...?) because they never went there...?


It still is 11 situations that points to the Custer's charge of the village. Could you explain me all this evidences according to the official version of Little Bighorn ?

How did Micno and Graham explain the 11 situations ?

[shatonska]

1. How do you explain the indian testimonies of Red Horse, Sitting Bull, Kill Eagle and a squaw, Martini, Davern, Godfrey, Edgerly, Goldin, Varnum, scout Goes Ahead... and many others, even Benteen and Reno, were sure that Custer charged the village ?
Martini said to Benteen that "Custer is charging the village". Sitting Bull indicates the village as "the position of the fight". Red Horse said "the soldiers stopped on the edge of the village". Scout Goes Ahead said : "gray troops (Custer's F company) crossed the river".

MARTINI AND GOES AHEAD COULD'NT SEE ANYTHING , MOLVING TOWARD THE FORD IS NOT CHARGING THE VILLAGE


2. How do you explain the dead body of Sergent Bustard of Company I found in the village site ?

THIS IS NOT SO CERTAIN, ANYWAY INDIANS COULD HAVE BROUGHT THE BODY OF BUSTARD INTO THE VILLAGE

3. How do you explain the army cartridges found on the village site ?

VERY FIEW , AND THE INDIANS TOOK THE CARTRIGES FROM DEAD SOLDIERS

4. How do you explain the 7th cavalry dead horses found on the village site ?

MANY WOUNDED HORSES RODE EVERYWHERE THAT DAY MANY EVEN CAPTURED COULD HAVE DIED IN THE VILLAGE ( THAT WAS MOVED , SO WHEN THESE HORSES DIED THERE WAS NO VILLAGE ANYMORE THERE )

5. How do you explain the death of the Gall's family (5 people), killed in her lodges of Hukpapas circle ? Bloody Knife is an impossible theory, nor the Reno's fight

WHERE KILLED IN THE WOOD BY THE RIVER BY ARIKAREES WHO WHERE STEALING HORSES

6. How do you explain the lodges burned found by Terry, as Red Horse testified of soldiers burning some of them, like Kill Eagle and even Godfrey thought so from Reno Hill.

IS IT TRUE ? I DON'T KNOW , BUT CONFUSION COULD SPREAD CAMP FIRE INTO SOME LODGES , INDIANS FLY IN A HURRY !

7. How do you explain the lost patrol on Weir Point ?

DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS

8. How do you explain that 1'000 warriors can leave Reno's command completly in a while of minutes ? The Indians have no chief able to command to attack a threat (Custer in the coulee as the official theory said) not seen, while Reno was retreating.

NOT SO FIEW MINUTES , SOME SAW CUSTER ON NYE RIDGE , MANY RETURNED TO CAMP NOT FOLLOWING RENO , MANY STAYED TO CONFRONT RENO , MANY WHO HAD NOT FOUGHT RENO WENT AGAINST CUSTER

9. How do you explain why Crazy Horse did his angle-march ? He had a great strategy mind, I could admit that, but to command more than 200 warriors to leave the front battlefield for a circling march, with what we know about the Indians lack of discipline. The official theory is not very convicting.

THER WAS NO STRATEGY AND NO CIRCLING MARCH , TASHUNKA RETURNED TO VILLAGE AMONG THE LATEST , HE CROSSED THE RIVER FOLLOWING RENO , THEN CROSSE AT FORD B , THE MEDICINE TAIL AND CIRCLED THE SOLDIERS FROM THE EAST SIDE

10. How do you explain how Custer can just ride down the Custer ridge and find directly a ford (North Ford), without exploring the river ? Custer's luck ?

CUSTER SEND 2 COMPANIES TO FAINT AT MEDICINE FORD THEN RETREATED ON THE RIDGE LEAVING 3 COMPANIES TO HOLD THE RIDGE WAITING FOR BENTEEN AND WENT TO FORD D IN EXPLORATION FOR FUTURE MOVES , ALL CLEAR AND LOGICAL BUT THAT DAY INDIANS WANTED TO FIGHT TILL THE END , CUSTER PROBLEM WAS THE DIFFERENT BEHAVIOUR OF THEINDIAN THAT DAY

11. How do the historians explain why Custer send his right wing passing Luce Ridge, for which reason ?

WHERE SENT TO INVESTIGATE THE FORD , REMEMBER THAT HE WAITED FOR BENTEEN BEFORE ATTACHING , BUT INDIANS REACHTED FURIOUSLY SO HE WAS FORCED TO GO TO THE RIDGE FOR BETTER DEFENCE

12. And finally, a question for the Custer's buffs you are. It is not a scientific question, but more a question about the spirit, a question for the Custer's buffs you are. Do you think seriously that Custer waited so long that Reno was routed, that Custer was waiting, and after that riding in the hills, sending scouting operations on the left, well... touristic riding on the right, all along, that THE Custer, the Michigander command, the BoyGeneral, the Wanutsa mastermind (the Wanutsa strategy is an help to understand LBH),the "best cavalry man of the Union army" if we quote Sheridan, this Custer was... waiting for Benteen ? Even after sending the 24 men patrol on Weir Point ? That's really not convicting.

CUSTER MADE NO GREAT MISTAKES , THE NOT USUAL INDIAN BEHAVIOUR ( AND MAYBE BENTEEN HATE TOWARD CUSTER ) THAT DAY CHANGED EVERYTHING AND CAUSED THE DISASTER


The official theory appears for me very lacunar. But maybe you have facts I haven't and you can reasonably explain me all this facts which indicates that Custer charge the village ?

Best regards,

[Walt Cross]

1. How do you explain the indian testimonies of Red Horse, Sitting Bull, Kill Eagle and a squaw, Martini, Davern, Godfrey, Edgerly, Goldin, Varnum, scout Goes Ahead... and many others, even Benteen and Reno, were sure that Custer charged the village ?
Martini said to Benteen that "Custer is charging the village". Sitting Bull indicates the village as "the position of the fight". Red Horse said "the soldiers stopped on the edge of the village". Scout Goes Ahead said : "gray troops (Custer's F company) crossed the river".

CUSTER SENT AND ACCOMPANIED THE LEFT WING AS A RECONNAISANCE IN FORCE DOWN MEDICINE TAIL COULEE FOR ONE REASON. HE WAS LOOKING FOR NONCOMBATANTS - WOMEN, CHILDREN. IF HE CAPTURED THEM, THE WARRIORS WOULD NOT ATTACK, HE COULD NEGOTIATE, AND MOVE THE INDIANS TO THE RESERVATION WHICH WAS HIS MISSION. HE DID NOT "CHARGE" THE VILLAGE BUT DID RUN INTO SOME LIGHT RESISTANCE THERE. THIS RESISTANCE WAS EFFECTIVE BECAUSE IT APPEARS LT. ALGERNON SMITH WAS EITHER WOUNDED OR KILLED AT THE RIVER CROSSING AS WAS LT. STURGIS.

2. How do you explain the dead body of Sergent Bustard of Company I found in the village site ?

HE WAS DRAGGED THERE BY THE INDIANS FOR "SPECIAL ATTENTION".

3. How do you explain the army cartridges found on the village site ?

INDIANS COMMONLY PICKED UP EMPTY CARTRIDGES FOR RELOADING AND OTHER USES. WHEN TERRY'S COLUMN APPEARED THEY LEFT BEHIND ANYTHING NOT NECESSARY.

4. How do you explain the 7th cavalry dead horses found on the village site ?

MANY HORSES WERE CAPTURED DURING THE FIGHT AND TAKEN (ALIVE) TO THE VILLAGE ONLY TO DIE LATER FROM THEIR WOUNDS.

5. How do you explain the death of the Gall's family (5 people), killed in her lodges of Hukpapas circle ? Bloody Knife is an impossible theory, nor the Reno's fight

GALL'S FAMILY WAS ON THE OUTSKIRTS OF THE VILLAGE AND RECEIVED FIRE FROM RENO'S ATTACKERS. THEY DIED IN A FUSILLADE OF BULLETS.

6. How do you explain the lodges burned found by Terry, as Red Horse testified of soldiers burning some of them, like Kill Eagle and even Godfrey thought so from Reno Hill.

INDIANS BURNED THE LODGES THEY DID NOT HAVE TIME TO TAKE DOWN.

7. How do you explain the lost patrol on Weir Point ?

WHAT LOST PATROL?

8. How do you explain that 1'000 warriors can leave Reno's command completly in a while of minutes ? The Indians have no chief able to command to attack a threat (Custer in the coulee as the official theory said) not seen, while Reno was retreating.

THEY RODE FAST PONIES, INDIAN PONIES WERE, FOR THE MOST PART, SUPERIOR TO THOSE OF THE 7TH CAVALRY. RENO WAS SOUNDLY DEFEATED. A TOKEN FORCE WAS LEFT TO WATCH HIM WHILE THE INDIANS TURNED TO GO AFTER CUSTER. INDIAN WARRIORS FROMT HE CLASH AT THE RIVER CROSSING SPREAD THE WORD ABOUT CUSTER'S ARRIVAL, PLUS, HE COULD BE SEEN RIDING THE CRESTS ABOVE THE VILLAGE.

9. How do you explain why Crazy Horse did his angle-march ? He had a great strategy mind, I could admit that, but to command more than 200 warriors to leave the front battlefield for a circling march, with what we know about the Indians lack of discipline. The official theory is not very convicting.

CRAZY HORSE DID NO ANGLE MARCH, THE MYTH THAT HE CIRCLED THE ENTIRE CUSTER BATTALION TO FINALLY ATTACK FROM THE EAST IS ONLY THAT, A MYTH.

10. How do you explain how Custer can just ride down the Custer ridge and find directly a ford (North Ford), without exploring the river ? Custer's luck ?

I'LL HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THIS ONE.

11. How do the historians explain why Custer send his right wing passing Luce Ridge, for which reason ?

THEY WERE SENT THERE TO PROVIDE A BASE OF RETREAT FOR THE LEFT WING SHOULD THAT BECOME NECESSARY. ALSO TO MAINTAIN SOME VIEW TO THE SOUTH AND TO MAKE CONTACT WITH BENTEEN WHO CUSTER HAD ALREADY SENT FOR TWICE. AND FINALLY TO PROTECT HIS FLANK FROM INDIANS WHO WERE ALREADY IN CONTACT WITH CUSTER'S BATTALION FROM THE EAST.

12. And finally, a question for the Custer's buffs you are. It is not a scientific question, but more a question about the spirit, a question for the Custer's buffs you are. Do you think seriously that Custer waited so long that Reno was routed, that Custer was waiting, and after that riding in the hills, sending scouting operations on the left, well... touristic riding on the right, all along, that THE Custer, the Michigander command, the BoyGeneral, the Wanutsa mastermind (the Wanutsa strategy is an help to understand LBH),the "best cavalry man of the Union army" if we quote Sheridan, this Custer was... waiting for Benteen ? Even after sending the 24 men patrol on Weir Point ? That's really not convicting.

I THINK YOU ARE ASKING IF CUSTER MADE A TACTICAL MISTAKE. THE ANSWER IS, YES HE DID.

The official theory appears for me very lacunar. But maybe you have facts I haven't and you can reasonably explain me all this facts which indicates that Custer charge the village ?

WHAT "OFFICIAL" ACCOUNT ARE YOU REFERRING TO?

Walt Cross

[weir]

Thank you for the two answers. I received another great one form John Doerner.

1. Yes that's the "official version" (I mean the version of the LBH national monument, taken in all books), but how do you explain the numbers of testimonies :

- John Poland report after discussing with Sioux in 1876 : "They said the soldiers crossed the river and attacked the edge of the village".
- Blackfoot Kill Eagle : "The soldiers get into the village and burnt any lodges".
- Red Horse : "The soldiers put fire on lodges".
- Lt Hare : "I can only speak for me and my first sergeant, but we both thought Custer was charging the village".
- Benteen : "I'm convinced that Custer has charged the village". (personal letter to his wife)
- Reno : "I was convinced that Custer will support me by attacking the village".
- Reno : "I'm convinced that the C, I and maybe a part of the company E crossed the river into the village".
- Godfrey : After exploring the river I have prooves that the soldiers crossed the river."
- Scout Goes Ahead : "the gray horses crossed the river".
- Martini to Benteen : "Custer is charging the village".
- Custer said according to Martini : "we will charge the village".
- Lt Mathey : "I heard volleys on the left bank, in the village."
- Sitting Bull : "The fight took place here (indicating the Hunkpapa circle)"
- Squaw Moving Robe : "soldiers fired in the campment. A warrior was hit near his teepee."
- Mac Clernand from Terry's column : "it was clear that Custer had crossed the river into the village".


There is also a number of testimonies of soldiers on Reno Hill which indicates the volleys were heard on the village area.


2. (Body of sergeant Bustard) WAS DRAGGED THERE BY THE INDIANS FOR "SPECIAL ATTENTION
By accepting that we are just reconsidering all the positions of the dead bodies on the Little Bighorn battlefield ! Why would the Indians have brought the body of Bustard and not others one ?

3. INDIANS COMMONLY PICKED UP EMPTY CARTRIDGES FOR RELOADING AND OTHER USES. WHEN TERRY'S COLUMN APPEARED THEY LEFT BEHIND ANYTHING NOT NECESSARY

Okay for that, it was just another argument to the village assault, but it can be used by both theories.

4. Same as n-3

5. It's scientifically impossible that the Reno's men shot the Gall family. Reno's men were at 2.2 miles of the camp, and a Springfield can fire 900 meters. Impossible. And Gall's family in the woods...? Two squaws and three girls walking in the woods as the combat was engaged...?

6. INDIANS BURNED THE LODGES THEY DID NOT HAVE TIME TO TAKE DOWN.
But two various testimonies (minneconjou Red Horse and Black Foot Kill Eagle) are speaking of lodges burnt by soldiers. Godfrey : "I saw a black smoke coming from the village area and I thought Custer was burning the village."

7. How do you explain the lost patrol on Weir Point ?

Godfrey told about them. 24 men of company F left on Weir Point by Custer, for indicating the way to Benteen. Connell and Nightengale spoke about them. Godfrey from Reno Hill : "I saw a good group of brave men on the peaks. (...) With what I know about General Custer, I understood they were placed here to protect the regiment for the coming times."

8. You explain 1'000 warriors leaving Reno who was retreating because they see... Custer...? 1'000 undisciplined warriors completly left Reno's fleeing troopers in a time of about "10 minutes" (according to sergeant Davern and Lt Godfrey), although they couldn't see Custer form the river, and... in a thunderous battle, while fighting ? What did Gall and others chiefs said to their warriors : "Go back there is Custer comin' ?". It doesn't sound logical at all. Undisciplined forces are uncontrolling. It is more logical if they left the Reno battlefield because Custer was charging their flank in the village. It was Custer's plan, even Reno admitted it was.

9. CRAZY HORSE DID NO ANGLE MARCH, THE MYTH THAT HE CIRCLED THE ENTIRE CUSTER BATTALION TO FINALLY ATTACK FROM THE EAST IS ONLY THAT, A MYTH.

Okay for that.

10. How do you explain how Custer can just ride down the Custer ridge and find directly a ford (North Ford), without exploring the river ? Custer's luck ? I'LL HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THIS ONE.

I think it's very surprising no historians wonder about that, and point directly the Custer's rout as it was a game. The North Ford was there, Custer there, so let link the two by a cross... Actually the North Ford was a discover, not a known area.


11. THEY WERE SENT THERE TO PROVIDE A BASE OF RETREAT FOR THE LEFT WING SHOULD THAT BECOME NECESSARY. ALSO TO MAINTAIN SOME VIEW TO THE SOUTH AND TO MAKE CONTACT WITH BENTEEN WHO CUSTER HAD ALREADY SENT FOR TWICE. AND FINALLY TO PROTECT HIS FLANK FROM INDIANS WHO WERE ALREADY IN CONTACT WITH CUSTER'S BATTALION FROM THE EAST.

I heard some very interesting archeological accounts form Chief historians Doerner about Luce Ridge. I'm quite sure the village assault theory can include this skirmish on Luce Ridge without accepting the very strange "two wings" theory.

12. I THINK YOU ARE ASKING IF CUSTER MADE A TACTICAL MISTAKE. THE ANSWER IS, YES HE DID.

The answer should be "I think he did". According to your version, Custer has left Reno without support, waiting as Reno was routed, waiting for Benteen, forgetting his primary plan to support by attacking the flank... Archeology thinks Custer was in Medicine Tail Coulee at 15040, while Reno was fighting in the woods. Custer couldn't know that Reno will be routed fifteen minutes later. He was just following his primary plan. He charged the village by the flank for helping Reno.
That's Custer mode of combat. A Custer scouting and waiting is a Custer which appears more like Benteen... !

The Custer of your version is blaming for having not supported Reno, for having doubted while a combat was engaged, for having a shy strategy while he was facing an huge ennemy.

The Nightengale's theory accorded to mine (and my brother's) can explain a logical facts sequence. I don't have to use to strange theories, or just ignore some Indians and soldiers testimonies because they are disturbing, or ignore some illogical moves on the battlefield (Custer on North Ford, Crazy Horse in the rear of Cemetery Ridge).... I'm quite sure I can include the serious conclusion of a fight on Luce Ridge without including chaotic explanations.

Here is my theory, according to testimonies, including archeology :

Reno charged the village. At 15h30 he was driven back to the woods. Custer is on Medicine Tail Coulee at 15h40. For supporting Reno, he charged the village, on the edge, suprising Sans Arc and Hukpapas, and others Indians who weren't ready for the Reno's fight. The village is not well defended, but Custer won't go further. He want to make a diversion, for supporting Reno. So he gave orders to burn any lodges. A black smoke went into the Little Bighorn sky (Godfrey noticed it). Warriors saw it, and rode back, leaving completly Reno's command in 10 minutes. After having his diversion done, Custer sent the right wing under Keogh to defend his rear and ordered Keogh to deploy his men on a hill behind the bluffs (Calhoun Hill). Custer took Company F and E along the Little Bighorn for exploring the river. He was seen by Crazy Horse warriors returning from combat. Many Cheyennes and Sioux warriors chased the Keogh right wing while she retreated into Calhoun Hill. But an important group of warriors chased Custer's companies from the left bank, and reached them on the North Ford. Custer gave orders for retreat while Indians were crossing, deployed his men on Cemetery Ridge to repulse warriors coming from the coulee up from the North Ford. Custer is the commander of the Left Wing fighting to the west. Keogh is the commander of the Right Wing fighting to the east. Both weren't mutilated. Indians recognized who were the chiefs of the two forces they fought separetly before Keogh's command was overhelmed and the survivors retreated and died on the Custer Hill. It is probably true also, according to many soldier's accounts, that the rest of the regiment saw Custer's command last fight from Weir Point. Benteen put a flag on the Weir Peaks at 17h50 to "the attention of the General Custer" he said, so the general or a large part of his command was still figting. And the Weir Point command (Reno and Benteen) abandonned the Custer's batalion to his fate without being driven by Indians (according to Lt Hare) but by retreating before combat. That's why officers gave accounts about what they saw from the Weir Peaks and soldiers anothers. The second ones wouldn't have endured problems with the military for their treason, but the officers should have.

We know that many accounts from Benteen and Reno were lies or half-lies. Reno, Benteen, some officers and the american military had better to give Custer the fault for the Little Bighorn instead to admit that 24% of the regiment (Reno) left the combat after an hour, that 40% (Benteen and the pack train) didn't even fought until Custer's men were dead and finally 36% fought without support during about three hours before finally being destroyed !

This is why Little Bighorn is so mysterious. It is not because no Custer's batalion men lived to tell the tale. It's because many of the others commanders, from the batalion to the company lied for saving their careers, and historians in many ways ignored some crucial Indians testimonies which would have indicated that Custer was abandonned.

[bigpond]

Weir,maybe if you look at the time figures [Gray]p368
lv seperation halt down MTC 16.08
by that time van of reno's retreat arr at the Hill [gray]p310 16.08.
Light firing over lBH begins 16.18 at MTC

[Walt Cross]

I have never read of a patrol on Weir Point comprised of men from Co F to maintain a line of communication. All the companies of Custer’s command had no more than 40 troopers and most of them less. To leave 24 men of Co F on Weir Point would be a grave error and leave the company so under strength as to be ineffective. What happened to this supposed patrol? There was no fight on Weir Point except for the retreat by Reno’s men after Custer was already dead.

Reno charged the village. At 15h30 he was driven back to the woods. Custer is on
Medicine Tail Coulee at 15h40.

Time frame is debatable, otherwise, agreed.

For supporting Reno, he charged the village.

No, Custer stopped midway down MTC, there he came under fire from Indians infiltrating MTC from the EAST. This band of approximately 50 warriors were returning from a buffalo hunt and discovered Custer early, they represented a threat to Custer’s line of communication to Reno. Custer divided his battalion into two wings, Keogh to engage these Indians, traverse Luce Ridge and set up a defensive perimeter.

The rest of the command moved down MTC for the purpose of finding non-combatants. If they could capture women and children the warriors would have to negotiate and Custers assigned mission, forcing the Sioux to the reservation, would be accomplished. Discovery of the ford was happenstance.

The village is not well defended, but Custer won't go further.

Agreed, however, he doesn’t go further because there is no need. The village is virtually deserted, there are no women and children, they have fled to the northwest. There is no burning of lodges, only a short engagement across the river and Custer moves on, searching for non-combatants. This is the method used by the U.S. Cavalry in the Indian Wars to gain compliance/surrender by the warriors.


After having his diversion done, Custer sent the right wing under Keogh to defend his rear and ordered Keogh to deploy his men on a hill behind the bluffs (Calhoun Hill).

No, Keogh never approached the ford or the village. But the “diversion” worked, the bulk of the Indian warriors left Reno for later and rode to engage Custer.

Custer took Company F and E along the Little Bighorn for exploring the river. He was seen by Crazy Horse warriors returning from combat. Many Cheyennes and Sioux warriors chased the Keogh right wing while she retreated into Calhoun Hill. But an important group of warriors chased Custer's companies from the left bank, and reached them on the North Ford.

Custer continued on the offensive, he rode up the ridge and rejoined Keogh, taking light casualties from desultory Indian fire. They separated again, Custer to the west, Keogh remaining to the east. Custer continued on the offense, riding down to the river a second time. This time he was met with a more substantial Indian defense hidden in the cottonwoods along the river. As pressure mounted from Indians crossing the river, Custer returned to the vicinity of LSH to link up with the rest of the battalion. He now realized his only chance was the arrival of Benteen.

Custer gave orders for retreat while Indians were crossing, deployed his men on Cemetery Ridge to repulse warriors coming from the coulee up from the North Ford. Custer is the commander of the Left Wing fighting to the west. Keogh is the commander of the Right Wing fighting to the east. Both weren't mutilated. Indians recognized who were the chiefs of the two forces they fought separetly before Keogh's command was overhelmed and the survivors retreated and died on the Custer Hill.

The Indians had a great deal of trouble merely telling officers from troopers. Custer was, in fact, mutilated. You may want to read the statements regarding this elsewhere on this forum. If Keogh was not mutilated it was only the luck of the draw.

It is probably true also, according to many soldier's accounts, that the rest of the regiment saw Custer's command last fight from Weir Point.

The view from Weirs point was so obstructed by smoke and dust and distance, little was discernible, even with field glasses. About all that was observed from there was that a fight was ENDING and the final shots echoed to them.

Benteen put a flag on the Weir Peaks at 17h50 to "the attention of the General Custer" he said, so the general or a large part of his command was still figting. And the Weir Point command (Reno and Benteen) abandonned the Custer's batalion to his fate without being driven by Indians (according to Lt Hare) but by retreating before combat. That's why officers gave accounts about what they saw from the Weir Peaks and soldiers anothers. The second ones wouldn't have endured problems with the military for their treason, but the officers should have.

No treason, no lies, they were simply too late. The Indians did close on them quickly, there was combat as they withdrew and casualties were suffered.

We know that many accounts from Benteen and Reno were lies or half-lies. Reno, Benteen, some officers and the american military had better to give Custer the fault for the Little Bighorn instead to admit that 24% of the regiment (Reno) left the combat after an hour, that 40% (Benteen and the pack train) didn't even fought until Custer's men were dead and finally 36% fought without support during about three hours before finally being destroyed !

This is why Little Bighorn is so mysterious. It is not because no Custer's batalion men lived to tell the tale. It's because many of the others commanders, from the batalion to the company lied for saving their careers, and historians in many ways ignored some crucial Indians testimonies which would have indicated that Custer was abandoned

Custer made strategic and tactical errors, not the least of all dividing his command, not once, not twice but three times. Reno was timid, Benteen was tardy. All made grave errors that resulted in the death of hundreds of soldiers. It was not the first time, nor the last time this would happen in U.S. military history. There was no conspiracy to lie. It was a military blunder the Indians DEFEATED the 7th Cavalry in fair combat. It was not a massacre.

[Capt WeirXavier]

weir said:

- Sitting Bull : "The fight took place here (indicating the Hunkpapa circle)"

*The Hunkpapa circle was placed at the far south end of the village.*

"Squaw Moving Robe : "soldiers fired in the campment. A warrior was hit near his teepee.""

*Yeah, soldiers did shoot through the tops of a few tepees--in Reno's initial charge on the village. Read "Lakota Noon." Once again, the Hunkpapas were the first in line, Cheyenne the last, village-ly speaking.*

"CRAZY HORSE DID NO ANGLE MARCH, THE MYTH THAT HE CIRCLED THE ENTIRE CUSTER BATTALION TO FINALLY ATTACK FROM THE EAST IS ONLY THAT, A MYTH.

[/i]"

*It's a myth that CH led "hundreds' of warriors up Deep Ravine and to wallop Custer with a surrounding motion/flank. Once again, see "Lakota Noon." Crazy Horse led a series of "bravery runs," one of which sliced through the backbone of Custer Ridge--seperating E and F troops from C and L ... permenently. CH seemed to buy into the Indians' primary allies that day--men, stealth, and luck.*

"According to your version, Custer has left Reno without support, waiting as Reno was routed, waiting for Benteen, forgetting his primary plan to support by attacking the flank... "

*If you have Custer waiting and watching Reno's failed charge, from the hills, you've been too busy reading Edward Curtis' tales. There is no way, given his record in the ACW, that Custer would allow Reno to hang in the wind. Had he even the inkling Reno was failing, he would have been there in a snap. The care in which he further deployed his battalion, I,L and C should be proof enough there was no need to rush to save Reno--or themselves--at the first ...*


"Both weren't mutilated. Indians recognized who were the chiefs of the two forces"

*Keogh wore Catholic medallions, which, if you believe it, freaked the Indians out (I'm not entirely sure they weren't familiar with them). From everything I've garnered, the Indians had no clue whom they were fighting on LSH. If GA Custer went unmutilated, it is because he was already dead. *


"The rest of the regiment saw Custer's command last fight from Weir Point."

*Without DeRudio's glasses, you can't see squat--even an RV--from Weir Point. The only thing I've seen was testimony (I believe from Weir) that there appeared to be "white rocks" near and around the area of Last Stand Hill. As we all know, these rocks later proved to be the naked bodies of Custer's battalion.*
[/quote]

Hope this helps!
Regards,
Leyton McLean

[shatonska]

[quote author=Guest-Walt Cross [/quote]

i quote walt cross

gall family was returning from the river when was surprised by arikaree steeling horses , is gall words that clarifies this

only indians who could not see speak of custer entering the village , words of indians who where at the ford are the one to follow

custer already knew that reno was retreating so it was useless invade an empty village to support nobody !

[weir]

1. I surely accept that Custer hit Wolf Tooth Cheyennes of Luce Ridge early in the battle. From my point of view, it is why Custer was so late (15h40) to Medicine Tail Coulee. 800 cartridges indicates that not only three companies were engaged but the whole regiment. The Indians fled, and so Custer had the entire way open to the village. It is perfectly logical. Remember what Custer said according to Martini : "We will charge and capture the village". He just followed his primary plan.
Sergeant Kanipe from reno Hill : "we could see 75 mounted warriors and Custer rode to the North to them". Custer has never been surprised by the mounted warriors, and would never have detached three companies for his primary plan to clear the way. Remember Custer's style of combat. Tom's Brooks, Waynesboro, W.a.s.h.i.t.a (sorry, the board change the name of the battle)... Custer is an agreesive cavalry leader. He pulled the warriors out of their positions and let them flee. That's why he lost time to support Reno by attacking the village. But after that he could attack. And he did.

2. The lost patrol is not a foolish order. Benteen was not supposed to wait and make halts during 30 minutes. Godfrey admitted himself that the 24 men of company F were a reasonnable order, read his account. It is typical Custer. This patrol would have brought Benteen quickly to the battlefield. If Benteen had followed the oders, he would have been at Medicine Tail Coulee at 15h40. Just when Custer needed him.
This patrol was not on the Weir Peaks to fight, but to help Benteen to come.

3. There is plenty of evidences, and the testimonies I share with you that you can find in the accounts of the 7th cavalry and warriors. Plenty of evidences (dead horses, cartridges on the village area, burnt teepees, sergeant Bustard's body), and plenty of testimonies (Red Horse, Sitting Bull,. Kill Eagle, Goes Ahead, Moving Robe, Godfrey, Hare, Davern, Mathey, Reno, Benteen, Varnum....) . Alone they can be isolated events. But put together, it means something very logical in the Custer's plan. You can't just ignore them and referred only to a version of the facts. We know that the archeological researchs on the village site are difficult to interpret. Doesn't mean we cannot interpret them.

4. The rest of the command moved down MTC for the purpose of finding non-combatants. If they could capture women and children the warriors would have to negotiate and Custers assigned mission, forcing the Sioux to the reservation, would be accomplished. Discovery of the ford was happenstance.
Happenstance? Well, like the North Ford, Custer's luck? The luck is the argument of those who haven't. I believe in some parts of happenstance, but I don't believe a colonel of the known leadership of Custer can wait about an hour (because when Reno was charging Custer was at the Weir Point) without doing anything, after he gave an order to Reno that he would support him.
Custer has waited until 15h40 to send a scouting operation on an unknown area, while Reno was surrounding by hundreds of warriors ? Absurd.

5. There is no burning of lodges
Well, you don't agree with Red Horse, Kill Eagle, Moving Robe and Lt Godfrey. Actually, they were parts of the event...

6. This is the method used by the U.S. Cavalry in the Indian Wars to gain compliance/surrender by the warriors.
The tactical method of the Frontier and of Custer was a circled attack of the objective. Remember W.a.s.h.i.t.a. Elliott to the right, Custer in the center, Myers in the left, and finally Thompson circled the village to attack the rear. In Little Bighorn, Reno was supposed to catch the attention of the warriors in the south, while Custer attacked the village by the flank (that was the plan transmitted by Custer to Reno). When Custer saw the mounted warriors on Luce Ridge, he send his whole command to fight them (that's why there are so much cartridges), so he could gain time to support Reno as he promised. That's why Custer was in the Medicine Tail Coulee at 15h40, while Reno has been engaged since 15h15. They were supposed to attack at the same time.
This is lo-gi-cal. It confirms archeology, testimonies, and Custer's method of combat.

7. No, Keogh never approached the ford or the village. But the “diversion” worked, the bulk of the Indian warriors left Reno for later and rode to engage Custer.
What prooves do you have that Keogh never approached the ford ? The death of sergeant Bustard seems to tell the contrary. That's a proof. Godfrey testimony that soldiers crossed the river are another. Goes Ahead said E company cross. Benteen and Reno thought Custer crossed (Reno said company C and L). Many soldiers and officers as Lt Mathey thought Custer was charging the village. That are prooves. What are yours ?

8. I think Cudster divided his command on the right bank of the river. He took two companies and sent Keogh to protect his rear by defending the front from coming Indians. Custer and his command probably retreated before the Indians reached them in the village. Custer was seen by Crazy Horse while he explored the river. He never found fords by happenstance. He explored the river, and didn't stop at the deep ford because he wanted to capture the civilians. So when he found the North Ford, he was said by his rear guard (last trooper of company F or E) that Indians were chasing him. So he ordered the retreat and deployed his men on Cemetery Ridge. This theory explained how Crazy Horse could have made his circled ride from Medicine Ford, around the hills and attacked Custer in the front from the Coulee to the Cemetery Ridge, and why Crazy Horse warriors could have attacked the I company of Koegh from the Crazy Horse Ravine in the east.


9. The Indians had a great deal of trouble merely telling officers from troopers. Custer was, in fact, mutilated. You may want to read the statements regarding this elsewhere on this forum. If Keogh was not mutilated it was only the luck of the draw.
Really ? Indians said the last survivor who stood up when the Indians attempted to mutilate him wore two gold bars. They said they know it was an officer.Two Moons remembered a "chief shouting". Indians remembered that a guy who attempted to flee mouted wore rafters. I think we find Indians more stupid than they really were. When Custer's brother who was several meters was completly butchered, G. A. Custer had a bullet in the temple (fired after the death), the tympanums bored and a finger cut (probably because his finger was caught by the tigger of his bulldog revolver). He was the sole, with Keogh, to be saved like that... Luck ? Seems so incredible to be trust.
Kate Bighead knew Custer. Rain In the Face discussed personally with him in the Fort Lincoln jail. Many Cheyennes knew him. He was the most famous ennemy known by the Indians.
I know historians always want to explain myths by scientific reasons. If they can't, they use the luck argument.
This is not convicting at all.

10. The view from Weirs point was so obstructed by smoke and dust and distance, little was discernible, even with field glasses. About all that was observed from there was that a fight was ENDING and the final shots echoed to them.
Sergeant Windolph : "A big fight was engaged".
Lt Mathey : "That is at that time I thought Custer was fighting thie Indians".
Private Goldin : "I saw Indians avancing in circle to a white mass on the top of the hills.
The officers said that they heard noting. Do you really believe that those who saw the final moments of Custer's command without supporting it tell you the truth ? We can telll that the "Weir Point culpability".
Historians found that "the officers of the 7th cavalry were embarrassed when we began to talk with them about the Weir Point".
Historians found that Lt Edgerly, who said he heard no shots, burnt a part of a personal letter which told the Weir Point event.
I hate the conspiracies if they are just made by foolish writers. But here the present facts, the Benteen conduct and the Reno bahavior were totally scandalous.

[weir]

11. No treason, no lies, they were simply too late. The Indians did close on them quickly, there was combat as they withdrew and casualties were suffered.

What? To believe in that is like believe that Oswald killed Kennedy. There are plenty of evidences which points the contrary. Reno lied in the Court of Inquiry. Benteen said he sent Weir. False. Benteen said he couldn't see the LSH from Weir Point. False. Benteen said he liked Custer. False ! Benteen said Weir was a drug addict. False. Terry said Custer led the 7th in a 107kilometers ride a day. False (55 in fact). Reno said Custer had no plan. False. Reno said he charged the Indians though the woods. False (he was routed). Reno said the retreat was done normally. False. Benteen said Custer's Last Stand positions were unorganized. False. Benteen said he was retreated from the Weir Point by the Indians. False. Reno said he stopped 1.6 miles from the village. False (2.2).

In the Court of Inquiry, adocate Gilbert showed a petition of support to Benteen and Reno, with 236 signatures. FBI confirmed that 102 were clearly false and maybe 50 more were really suspected to be.
In the Court of Inquiry, advocate Gilbert showed a map to explain the 7th moves. A cartographic study revealed in 1995 that this map was completly false.

Members of the 7th cavalry even admit, as members of the army (Miles, Rosser, Johnston...) that the Little Bighorn was completly obscured by the lies of the responsibles of the disaster.
I repeat, to believe Custer was not abandonned is like believe Kennedy was killed by a lone man ! Completly absurd !!!

12. Custer made strategic and tactical errors, not the least of all dividing his command, not once, not twice but three times. Reno was timid, Benteen was tardy.

Timid ? He has the responsability of 43 dead when he left in batalion in the woods, fleeing the first. No rear guard. He placed non-fighting Arikaras on the flank of his line so he had to retreat early to the woods. According to De Rudio, Reno could have sttand 3 hours in the woods. He stood 15 minutes. According to testimonies, Reno's command fired 4 volleys in the woods.
Benteen was an-hour late. He waited 32 minutes after Weir unautorized departure. And he ordered to retreat from the Weir Point.
The major error of Custer was to have given two batalion to this two horrible commanders. They surely are the worst commanders ever in the Indians Wars. At least Fetterman paid his stupidity.

13. There was no conspiracy to lie.
Check out the Court of Inquiry. It is quite funny to see how the military treated the Little Bighorn affair. Check also Robert Nightengale book.

14. It was a military blunder the Indians DEFEATED the 7th Cavalry in fair combat. It was not a massacre.
You seem to be disturbed by the politically correct. In admitting that Custer was abandonned and that the major responsability of the disaster come from the 2/3 of the regiment commanded by Reno and Benteen you are not minimizing the victory of the Indians. You are just revealing the truth.

Benteen and Reno were the great support of the Indians coalition on June 25th. Like Crook on the Rosebud who gave the victory to the Indians although he won the battle (yes I know it is unlogical but that's Crook), Reno and Benteen abandonned Custer's batalion to his fate.

Little Bighorn, at 15h40 was a winning battle. Because of the cowardice of Reno and the treason of Benteen, at 16h30 it became a hard fight. At 1730, it became a desperate combat. At 18h00, as Benteen and Reno were watching, it became a final struggle. At 18h15, as the rest of the 7th were retreating to their safe place, on Last Stand Hill 215 men were dead because of what Reno and Benteen had done.

[bigpond]

Weir,
on reading your posts,Im seriously thinking ELVIS is alive and well ;D

[Tricia]

bigpond said:

Weir,
on reading your posts,Im seriously thinking ELVIS is alive and well ;D

Gosh, Cap't Weir is starting to sound like his brother who throws the around the notion of treason with abandon and little knowledge of American jurisprudence. But I am interested in reading his book--though I'll struggle through the french.

Regards,
Leyton McLean

Release date, anyone?

[The brother of Weir]

OK Elvis and Co, then give me a good explanation for...

1)Benteen marhing in trot after Custer gave him orders.

2) The statement Reno gave in his report "I heard gunfire" and his statement at the Reno Court of Inquiry "I didn't hear anything"

3) Benteen's statement at the Court of Inquiry "One cannot see the Last Stand Hill from Weir Point" - everybody could see today the hill from Weir Point and everybody could see it on june 25th (Edgerly, Godfrey, all said they saw it)

4) Reno and Benteen gave numerous false account of the battle at the Reno Court of Inquiry, a false petition of enlisted men and a false map. Why ?

5) Give me an explanation of Zapruder's film show Kennedy moving in the rear after being shoted cleary in the face.

Give me facts. Don't laugh. Give me answers. Or tell me that you haven't any, or tell me that you never look at these facts.